Rate and Discuss: Flesh and Stone

[SiHart]

It's part 2 tonight of the latest Doctor Who adventure.
What did you think of it?

Si xx

[shada pavlova]

This episode contained everything I love about Doctor Who. Extreme scariness, running through corridors, inversion of expectancies, storyarcs coming together, and best of all, EPIC FORESHADOWING!!!!!

10/10, without a doubt!!

[Dino]

It's a rollover!

[Paul Monk]

SUPERB! I loved every minute of it. Even the comapnion kissing bit worked brilliantly.

[Andrew Curnow]

Really gripping. I watched it with Claudia and her sleepingover friend, and they were both totally silent & still throughout - not out of respect for my enthusiasm, I can assure you!!!

Particularly liked the Doctor's moments of furious impatience, his kissing of Amy on the forehead (do we think he's watched The War Games as well as Tomb...) and, really just all of it. Amy coming on to the Doctor was something new and unexpected, and I really loved his reaction in firstly not getting it at all, and then definitely not having any of that at all!!

[MinaHarker]

Not as good as last week.

The angels had me gasping in fear again, but I wish we hasn't seen them move.

Having the soldier forget the other members of his team was really frightening, although I don't know why.

Amy counting down was good - although she just stopped and it fizzled out! Something should have been done with that.

I love River Song.

Kissing the Doctor - GGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NOT AGAIN!!!!!ELEVEN!!!!! NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!

[Si Hunt]

There was certainly lots to like about this episode - curiously, less to do with the denoument of the story but more that it made sense of much that had gone before.

First good thing - the change of setting and, hurrah, a decent spaceship in the New Series AT LAST! The clever bit was that under ordinary circumstances the ending would have felt like a cop-out - big thing appears and sucks in all the Angels. But because the Big Thing had been haunting us for three weeks, and led us onto something MORE interesting than the story it was closing, it worked. I loved the idea of the crack being a big surge of time that erases anyone it sucks in from ever having lived. River was brilliant this episode, and I'm delighted to hear the episode (and the Moff in Confidential) confirm that we WILL see the rest of her story with the Doctor play out.

The other thing I liked about this episode was the last scene. Amy's sudden decision to seduce the Doctor worked in every way that Martha's "crush" on the last Doctor didn't - she didn't see him, fall into an unlikely love with him and then let it crush her for the rest of her time with in. We haven't been sure if she has romantic feelings for him or not - and maybe that's because, like real life, she wasn't sure either. She always liked him, you could tell; but she wasn't about to throw herself at him. Then they grew into good friends, then at the end of a great long day, they are back in her bedroom, the best of friends, he's saved her, it's warm and nice... of course she wants to sleep with him. It's the most romantic, heart-filled, human thing to want to do. I really thought it felt right, though I'm glad he didn't reciprocate.

The only thing that bothered me about this episode was the Angels themselves. I'm so glad we saw them 'move' once, but unfortunately shining a light on this most inventive of monsters threatened to rip holes in their logic many times. If they "cease to exist when looked at", how could Angel Bob talk to the Doctor when he was standing facing it? What exactly did the Angels do to you in this episode when they caught you? I think I may have missed a line that said they no longer send you back in time (or would these people have ended up in the history of the planet?) but... what? When the Angel grabbed the Doctor's coat and hauled him backwards, he wasn't looking at it so why didn't it get him? Most glaringly of all, how did Amy stand with the Angels when she had her eyes shut? There was a weird line where the Doctor said they were "preoccupied" with escaping the crack, but then surely if that were the case they should have been visibly fleeing? And then an even odder bit where the implication was that if Amy "acted like she could see" their "instincts" would kick in and they would freeze... what?! Surely the ability to turn to stone when not looked at has got to be a physical property rather than a decision, or else they would choose to never do it? Ultimately, these monsters only work if they are only ever on camera when they are being watched, and it bothered me all the times when, due to their maximised exposure in this episode, they were frozen yet no-one was looking at them.

Still. As I said, there was tons to enjoy here. It was all the better for switching location and telling a different story to the first episode; considering this was his first performance, Matt Smith was extraordinary as the Doctor, and River will be a great companion when we finally get to see it. What this episode did was crystalise the shape of Steven Moffatt's Doctor Who - a fairytale world of forests and spaceships and jumbled up concepts where nothing happens in the right order. And the crack has gone from being a tiresome 'insert' at the end of every episode to a genuinely interesting notion: an explosion that is rippling back through time.

Suddenly, it's all got a bit interesting.

Si.

[MinaHarker]

And then an even odder bit where the implication was that if Amy "acted like she could see" their "instincts" would kick in and they would freeze... what?! Surely the ability to turn to stone when not looked at has got to be a physical property rather than a decision, or else they would choose to never do it?

I agree. The Doctor had previously said that "they are quantum locked" when looked at, which suggests a physical property.

I wonder what would happen if you put a mirror in front of one? Is it just me that wants one to experiment on?

[Si Hunt]

Don't forget a key plot point of "Blink" was that they were trapped forever when facing each other. So if a Weeping Angel checked her lippy, she's there for a while.

Si.

[Lissa]

I felt like a bit of a hypocrite for being fine with the Angels getting sucked into the crack. Wasn't it just a typical RTD cop out ending? It took eight minutes of pasta boiling to figure out the difference. The Angels were sucked into the crack because the gravity on the ship shut down. It shut down because - as we've seen over the last two episodes - the Angels were draining its power away. It makes sense that gravity would be the second to last thing the ship switched off (air being the last). So it wasn't an RTD flipping a hitherto unseen switch and saving the day ending - it was all there, it was all logical and that's why it worked.

[Awesome Wells]

Moffat does have an answer for everything; well, most things. I was just thinking, surely those statues should be moving... and they did!

Then I thought several of the things which Si said regarding the illogicity of the Angels movement and decided that I could forgive Moffat one or two little titchy gripes because:

a) he's a genius and the episode was truly splendid

and

b) moaning about little titchy things is for saddos*


I did have a brief Twitter whinge about the whole "cracks in time" thing being about Amy - I thought and still kind of do think that it's been done before - but Lissa reminded me that Moffat has never let us down and his grand scheme deserves to be given a chance.

I gave this a solid 9/10... I thought throughout it was worse than last week's (which, had I been here, I would have given 8/10, I think) until the end, when I realised it was even better.

But no more Angels please. I think that the law of diminishing returns might apply; and Moffat is brainy enough to think of new and exciting alien horrors, I'm sure.

[MinaHarker]

b) moaning about little titchy things is for saddos*

I did have a brief Twitter whinge about the whole "cracks in time" thing being about Amy - I thought and still kind of do think that it's been done before - but Lissa reminded me that Moffat has never let us down and his grand scheme deserves to be given a chance.

It worries me a little, because didn't we go through all this with Donna, being "the most important woman in the universe"?

[Awesome Wells]

I got a bit asterisk-happy. Perhaps it should have been an emoticon to indicate that of course, I don't believe it's only saddos who whinge about little titchy things.

That would be sad.

[MinaHarker]

I got a bit asterisk-happy. Perhaps it should have been an emoticon to indicate that of course, I don't believe it's only saddos who whinge about little titchy things.

That would be sad.

[Si Hunt]

It worries me a little, because didn't we go through all this with Donna, being "the most important woman in the universe"?

It's not exactly the same thing I don't think. Donna was the most important woman in the Universe because of something she did; the message there was clearly that even if you have the most ordinary life, being a temp from Chiswick, you can be inspired to do something that can save the World.

Where-as Amy hasn't done anything brave; she has none of the issues Donna had anyway. But (it seems) something to do with time is centreing around her to make her significant. I think she might be an unwitting pawn in a temporal calamity, where-as Donna was an individual who rose above her disadvantages to make a difference.

Si.

[SiHart]

Well I loved it.

(and welcome back Dave!)

Si xx

[Pip Madeley]

The Doctor lost his jacket when the Angels almost caught him... then later when he left Amy with the Clerics he still didn't have his jacket... a moment later he pops back and tells her to remember what he said to her when she was 7 - and he's wearing his jacket! In the next scene the jacket's gone again... a simple continuity error or is that the Doctor from the future?

[Jon Masters]

6.5 out of 10 for the two - I'll stay short and sweet so's not to upset people who loved it; it did have its moments but ruined a perfectly good monster concept, still had big plot holes (has Moff lost his plotting Mojo? ) and had a very uncomfortable last few minutes for a family show.

Looking at next week - are all young human males in the DW universe now lily-livered moaners , or just the ones that feisty female companions like ?

[Darren]

6 out of 10

I really couldn't get into this story at all. The one constant has been Matt Smith's Doctor. but there have been plenty of plot holes as picked up on by others. Especially the logic of the Angels. Also, was it explained why they started breaking necks instead of sending people into the past?

Amy coming on to the Doctor was something new and unexpected

For me it jarred with the previous episodes, as Amy has never shown the slightest interest in the Doctor until now.

and had a very uncomfortable last few minutes for a family show

Yes, I did feel it was inappropriate aswell.

[Rob McCow]

Whoop!

Another episode that felt a bit short but was still very satisfying. So many great moments!

And they've made it fairly blatant that River Song kills the Doctor. Logically, that means that she obviously won't kill the Doctor. Unless she does.

[Darren]

It could simply be one of his incarnations, not outright death. It also seems to indicate that River Song will be back this series if the Pandorica is going to open.

[Awesome Wells]

they've made it fairly blatant that River Song kills the Doctor.

Almost too blatant, I thought; all this stuff about the man River killed being a hero, a great man, etcetera, made me wonder if that isn't what we're meant to think - only to find out later it's the Brigadier or Captain Jack or Amy's-fiancee-who-inadvertently-saves-the-universe-later-on-in-the-series.

Then again, maybe not. Who can say? It's all part of the genius of Moffat. Speaking of which, my favourite exchange from tonight's episode was:


Doc: "I wish I'd known you better."

Bish: "You knew me at my best."

Awww....

[Wayne]

Kissing the Doctor - GGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NOT AGAIN!!!!!ELEVEN!!!!! NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!

and had a very uncomfortable last few minutes for a family show.

Yes, i'm not sure of the wisdom of a kids/family show portraying Amy wanting a quick shag on the night before her wedding.
And i emphathise with Emma re the snog. RTD did the whole Doctor snogs companion bit to death, and i was hoping that Moffat would leave it behind, as it's just gotten so old.
On the one hand it's a facile, unoriginal and unimaginitive idea, but on the other hand, it seems to me that at least the Doctor's reaction to it would be just how it was portayed. ie: "I'm an alien, I'm over 900 years old, and it just doesn't make any sense."
I'd still have preferred Moffat not to've felt the need to go there, but i suppose it was a way dealing with it, seeing as how we seemingly must have snogging in Dr Who these days, and at least it was done with a humorous slant. Anthing's more preferable than the Tennant/Piper barf-fest. If Moffat leaves it at that, it won't be so bad in the context of the whole season.
As to rest of the episode, the odd bit rushed dialogue aside, i thought it was another good episode. Perhaps not quite as strong as Part 1, but taken as a whole, this is still one of the best New Series stories to date, and certainly the best this season. Especially after the tragic hackery that was Victory of the Daleks.
Smith and Gillan though, continue to shine. Especially Matt Smith, who's like an old friend coming round for a visit with a bottle of good wine, rather than Tennant who was like the pissed up twat shouting in the street than you just want to call the police to get him to move on.

Matt Smith is the Doctor!



Btw... Awesome Wells is the best user name since Anne Onimity, or indeed Ernest R. Soul.

[Awesome Wells]

Ernest R. Soul.

It'll never catch on...

[Si Hunt]

My favourite quote from the story is:

Doctor: Lovely species, the Aplans. We should visit them sometime.
Amy: I thought they were all dead.
Doctor: So is Virginia Woolf, I'm on her bowling team.

Si.