Further Into The Vortex: Specials Scores Please!!!

[MacNimon]

So now we move onto Colin's second, and final, complete season. Best known collectively as The Trial Of A Timelord season, for the sake of continuity buffs I'll refer to it here simply as...

Season 23

So as usual, marks out of 10 please for...

The Mysterious Planet
Mindwarp
Terror of the Vervoids
The Ultimate Foe

I think it was Jonno who asked whether we'd regard this as one long story or four seperate ones; for the purpose of this thread we'll score it as four stories but of course feel free to offer your thoughts on it overall. Also, the eventual season average we get will obviously be the same as the average scoring for one long story would be!

[Wayne]

The Mysterious Planet - 5/10
Mindwarp - 4/10
Terror of the Vervoids - 7/10
The Ultimate Foe - 6/10

[Phillip Culley]

For this, in the individual episode section I'll just sum up the episode, and then follow up with the trial as a whole

The Mysterious Planet 7/10 It's so nice to see the Doctor and Peri getting on with each other - while I don't dislike conflict in a series, when it's an ongoing thing between the only two main characters it drags a lot. Aside from that this is a fairly good story, and although Holmes has done a lot getter, this is a good last full story to go out on.

Mindwarp 7/10 The return of Sil, although it's not as good as Varos last season. Still what lets the story down is made up for the shock death of Peri, and BRIAN BLESSED!

Terror of the Vervoids 6/10 It's not bad; although it's not great either. Plus Mel's not as annoying as usual (although she's far, far better than the worst companions, like Adric - at least she doesn't sulk all the time )

The Ultimate Foe 7/10 A mess. Although given the behind the scenes shenanigans it could have been a lot worse, it's still a disappointing end, both to the trial and Colin Baker's era as a whole - it's a shame as he was a good Doctor, with bad material. Plus it was a bad move to give them a happy ending by showing Peri's still alive.

The Trial of a Time Lord 6/10 The notion of the Doctor going on trial is a nice idea; it's just a shame it's so hideously executed. We have the Valeyard who it seems is capable of changing the case against the Doctor as and when he chooses; not to mention how he seems to twist the evidence as he chooses. There should be drama as the Doctor's life is on trial; instead it's just frustration. Plus the whole 'Valeyard is the Doctor' rubbish is just that.

It's a shame, as the main roles are well played - it's just they have such a shoddy story to go with it, which seems to be reliant on minor plot points from episodes previously shown months ago.

[SiHart]

But first a venerable Time Lord faces inquisition in the much awaited return of Doctor Who...

The Mysterious Planet 7
Not the best opening story, nor indeed the worst, this is just abou above average stuff lifted by some nice ideas, dialogue and of course the wonderful opening modelwork. I can remember hating the new theme at first and complaining about it to my mum!

Mindwarp 7
I used to detest this story, until I watched it with Steve and he came up with some good explanations for what was going on. It's really well made and pretty stylish, especially with it's wonderfully atmospheric music. It does throw up a lot of difficult questions both on screen and behind the scenes and there is still the sense that no-one really knows what this was all about.

Terror of the Vervoids 7
Again, this is pretty good, and fun to watch for the all the moments that have become iconic PS things- Janet's bum, the coffee, Vervoids... PipnJane plot well, but their dialogue is OTT, but this is still pretty good stuff.

The Ultimate Foe 7
It's an ending, not as good as it could have been due to the difficult circumstances it was written/ made in, and it's a shame that the death of Peri is ultimately skirted round because that was the shocking moment of the series. I can see why they went for a conclusive ending, but really it's a shame they didn't have the guts to go for something more adventurous.

Not as bad as it's made out to be- there's some good ideas, but they don't quite all come together due to the difficult things going on behind the scenes. Colin is brilliant this year though, despite his hair and all those close ups at the end of the episodes!

Si xx

[Rob McCow]

The Mysterious Planet 9/10
Bold, brilliant and brash, with possibly the best special effects seen in the 'classic' series. The robots look really cool.

Mindwarp 10/10
Schizophrenic.

Terror of the Vervoids 6/10
Very entertaining on a first watch, but this is a story that has no internal logic whatsoever. Trying to write a synopsis of the story or a list of who-murdered-who-and-why would drive you insane.

The Ultimate Foe 7/10
The revelation about the Valeyard's identity is actually rather naff, in my opinion. There's some great stuff in this two parter, but it's an unsatisfying conclusion to the series. Most of it's 7 points come from having Anthony Ainley in it

[MacNimon]

The Mysterious Planet 5/10 Watchable and enjoyable, but not particularly memorable or exciting. That's about all I can say about this story.

Mindwarp 3/10 My least favourite story of the season. I usually enjoy Brian Blessed's OTT performances, but not here. Basically it's just a story I've never taken a liking to, pure and simply.

Terror Of The Vervoids 8/10 this is my favourite story of the season, despite the appearance of Bonnie Langford. This is the most traditional story of the season, and the fact that Honor Blackman makes an appearance helps it out no end!

The Ultimate Foe 7/10 The final two episodes are also enjoyable enough, but just not up to the same standard. Most definitely an improvement on episodes 1-8, though. But Peri's departure must be the most botched-up departure of a companion, ever. Not a satisfactory exit, imo. Like Si, I wish that they had the courage to stick with the shock exit.

Overall, a disappointing season after the 18-month haitus. After that wait, we just expected so much more than what we actually got. A missed opportunity.

[Logo Polish]

The Mysterious Planet, 3/10, badly thought-out, boring, insipid, tacky and uninspired.

Mindwarp, 5/10, good sense of rising tension, and colourful, but deeply silly at heart.

Terror of the Vervoids, 2/10, amateurishly written and made, adversaries ridiculous, story and characters both dull.

The Ultimate Foe, 5/10, some potentially good ideas in there, but not really integrated with each other especially well.

[Perry Vale]

The Mysterious Planet - 4/10
Mindwarp - 3/10
Terror of the Vervoids - 7/10
The Ultimate Foe - 5.5/10

Overall - 4.5/10

[Milky Tears]

The Trial of a Timelord - 7/10



The Mysterious Planet - 6.5/10 (65%)
Mindwarp - 8/10 (80%)
Terror of the Vervoids - 7/10 (68%)
The Ultimate Foe - 7.5/10 (75%) (84&66%)

[Andrew Curnow]

Mixed feelings for season 23, I see. I've always rather liked it - in fact, no I'll go further, and say that despite its faults I've always rather loved it. No, it didn't come back on our screens, light up the world, and get 20 million viewers; and yes, probably in hindsight the trial was a bad idea. But it just feels that bit less jaded than the last couple of seasons - it has a hint of freshness to it, it's a bit lighter in tone, and perhaps most of all, Colin is on top form. Don't get me wrong, he's not bad in season 22, but he's not as easy to warm to as he is in season 23, and even at the time (ie, in 1985 & 1986) I enjoyed season 23 a whole lot more than season 22.

What's quite neatly done is the slight shift in emphasis of the sixth Doctor's character - within the first few minutes of episode 1 of TOATL we get two examples of how his rather rude & bombastic personality (which was far more to the fore in season 22) is in fact largely an act. First, he's just about to knock on the Trial Room doors like a good, well-brought up little Time Lord... but then decides to just shove them open and barge in; and then again, when the Inquisitor enters his instinct is to stand respectfully, but he then puts on the show of sitting sulkily in his chair. So the abrasive Doctor of the year before is now rather more amenable, and I think that interpretation works a lot better - certainly, if they'd sacked Colin after 1985 I wouldn't have been too bothered; by the time they announced he was being dumped after 1986 I was really disappointed.

The first episode of the season, incidentally, we watched (brother & I) with a sitting-room full of folk, which gave the return, or indeed The Return, of Doctor Who a strong sense of occasion. We all enjoyed it, I can remember that much, and there was some hilarity at the Valeyard's proposal to "adumbrate two typical instances of separate epistopic interfaces of the spectrum".

It's a flawed season, but although it's probably a bad idea I still think the trial theme works well enough - if you're dedicated enough to watch the whole season it does kind of build to a climax, and although we now know the last episode to have been written in a panicky rush, we had no idea at the time, so it didn't feel out of place or 'replacement'-y at all. The last episode does complete the story satisfactorily enough for my tastes, tying up the plot without leaving (that I can think of) any holes outstanding - the fact that it's not what was originally intended for the final episode is beside the point.

So all in all, TOATL has a special place in my heart (or perhaps, hearts) and the season as a whole contains some of my all-time favourite moments. So there!

[Andrew Curnow]

Oh yes, scores sorry - forgot.

The Mysterious Planet 7/10
It loses a bit for Joan Sims, the 'cliffhanger' to part 2, and a few other little niggles, but other than that it's a solid, largely self-contained opener. Favourite moments - part 1's "Nothing is eternal" scene between the Doctor and Peri; the opening model shot; Glitz!!

Mindwarp 8/10
Very atmospheric and moody, which is good; probably a bit offputting to the casual viewer because of the prolonged 'bad Doctor' element, which is bad. As a fan, though, rather than a casual viewer, I really like this one. Favourite moments - the death of Peri, the moment where the Doctor is swept away in the TARDIS which then brings us full circle back to the opening of episode 1, the 'skedaddle test'.

Terror of the Vervoids 8/10
Rob M is right, the plot is just absurd, but bizarrely one isn't so aware of that while watching, it's only afterwards when you start to think about it. On the plus side, the first two cliffhangers are awesome, Bonnie makes actually a very enjoyable debut, and the climax is rather moving too. Travers is very badly acted though, for shame.

The Ultimate Foe 10/10
Sorry, but I love it to bits. Possibly that's in part due to the fact that we got our first ever VCR on the Tuesday before episode 13 aired, so these two episodes got watched again and again. Nevertheless, the whole thing does build to a taut climax, with the continual uncertainty (at least on first airing) as to whether or not the Doctor would actually survive - an extra-long episode, billed in the Radio Times as "the final episode" could just possibly have killed off the Doctor for good... Favourite moments - the big reveal of the Valeyard (Colin is superb); the Sidney Carton heroics; the reams of quotable dialogue (now that's a definite legacy of regular repeat viewings); and the part 13 cliffhanger.

Oh, and Dominic Glynn's music, Michael Jayston, and Lynda Bellingham are all very good too!!!

"Ah, so he humiliates you by throwing harpoons at me - makes a lot of sense..."

[Jason Thompson]

Oh dear, I'm a bit behind, aren't I? OK, hoist up your skirts, Peri, off we go!

Warriors Of The Deep

Not a bad story by any means. It does look sloppy, sadly, but when you read about what was going on behind the scenes that is not surprising. Using mattresses as heavy metal doors was a mistake, as was the Myrka. The Silurians look too cheerful, and the Sea Devils have cricked necks. And who thought Ingrid Pitt should karate kick a pantomime sea monster? Still, I dont see why it gets criticised for two points. Firstly, why would an undersea base have low level lighting? Second, the hexachromite. The plot isnt given away with it because the rest of the story is about the Doctor trying to find some way to avoid using it, despite its obvious use for removing the threat. Even when he does use it he is only doing so as a bargaining position, not to commit outright genocide. The final words say it all.

Score: 5/10

The Awakening

Short and sweet, but its a shame the threat is essentially dealt with by everyone crowding into the TARDIS and the Doctor flicking a few switches.

Score: 6/10

Frontios

I was not overly impressed with this, I have to say. It plods. The Tractators look fine until they move, and both times the Gravis collapses I have to stifle a giggle as it looks so ridiculous just finally clunking down on its nose! Its a fine idea, and it is quite well executed on the visual front. Just didnt hold my attention.

Score: 5/10

Resurrection Of The Daleks

Love it, even though it makes little sense in places. It keeps up the pace, and is unremittingly dark in places. Tegans departure is one of the best in the series, and makes perfect sense in the context of the story. Not only has she seen people killed, but shes even seen the Doctor heading out with the intention of committing cold-blooded murder. As she said, it stopped being fun.

Score: 9/10

Planet Of Fire

Average fayre. Quite enjoyable though. Love the part 1 cliffhanger, and Peri gets a good start. Its a great shame, however, that given the Lanzarote location they use it both as an alien planet and Lanzarote.

Score: 8/10

The Caves Of Androzani

Brilliant stuff. For a change the Doctor is a catalyst rather than a reactant in the affairs, and Davison gives his absolute best performance. The part 3 cliffhanger is brilliant, I hardly need to say.

Score: 10/10

The Twin Dilemma

Oh, such a valiant try, but so badly realised. OK, the Doctor gets a new costume (which, by the way, I dont think is all that bad), but did everyone else have to dress so badly? Mestor looks cross-eyed. The Doctor has some truly awful moments, but also some rather good ones. I particularly like his reaction when he realises Peri is genuinely scared of him. But then there are such lines as may my bones rot and its called compassion, Doctor. And of course Maurice Denham is superb. The twins are not.

Score: 4/10

Attack Of The Cybermen

Hmm. Im never sure if I love this or hate it. The Cybermen make a great entrance, Lytton is good, it moves along OK, but the plot is bollocks. After all the time spent getting to the timeship, everyone gets shot. The Cybermen not only get into the TARDIS really easily but also know how to fly it, and the ones back on Telos know how to communicate with it! And there is about ten full minutes spent explaining the backstory. Keeps one entertained, which I guess is the first priority, but isnt all that great.

Score: 5/10

Vengeance On Varos

Another one that doesnt really grab me. Clever idea, but some truly bad acting and some bad ideas. Two unconvincing green lights are actually supposed to be two green lights, but for some reason they really think its a monster! Loved Sil though.

Score: 6/10

The Mark Of The Rani

Enjoyable but silly, and doesnt really end so much as wander into a cul-de-sac and stop. Bringing back the Master after he burned to death on screen last year was ill-judged, and cramming him and another renegade Time Lord into the same plot was a bit pointless. Still, one thing the Beeb invariably do well is period setting, and the location filming lokos great.

Score: 7/10

The Two Doctors

It makes no sense whatsoever if you stop and think about it, so dont! Still, unlike most other stories in this era the performances are all very good, and the Spanish setting works really well, superfluous though it is. It is too long really, but I cant help but enjoy it whenever I watch it.

Score: 10/10

Timelash

Oh dear lord no. Utterly appalling. Paul Darrow overacts, H.G. Wells, a highly literate and intelligent man is portrayed as a wet fish with no brain and no likeability, the sets looks cheap, tinsel in the Timelash, the whole plot dealt with using some magic crystal thing, waaaaaaaaay too much TARDIS scene padding, the single worst example of Ill explain later ever in the history of the show, and a pointless coda when the story runs out of plot with ten minutes left even after all the padding! This one will languish on my shelf unwatched for ages on VHS, and will languish on shop shelves unbought on DVD until I need it to complete my collection in future years.

Score: 0/10

Revelation Of The Daleks

Differnet. Hated it when I was a younger fan, but rather like it now. For some reason I really like the white Daleks, and it is something of a shock to see that this time they dont get a big entrance, Saward having evidently realised that if the word Dalek appears in the title no-one is going to be surprised by their entrance at all so why make a fanfare out of it. Orcini is a superb character, very well played, and Davros gets a few extra dimensions too. And a bonus point for the statue scene because its the first real memory I have of the series from way back when this was first shown.

Score: 9/10

The Mysterious Planet

Now were into my territory. I watched Trial when it was first on. A good story, owing much to Holmess first script The Krotons (or whatever inspired that script). I remember Drathro. I remember the death of Katryca. I remember the bleeped dialogue. And that brings me to the thing that drags this one down a few points: Its inclusion in the trial makes no sense, and the bleeped dialogue is even more pointless, since it serves only to arouse suspicion in the Inquisitor. A good setup that is in the wrong place. If the defendant in any case can legitimately sit up and say thats one up to me after presentation of some prosecution evidence there is something clearly wrong.

Score: 6/10

Mindwarp

Didnt like this much then, dont care for it much now. The death of Peri is shocking, and should have been kept as her exit. The plotting is OK, it has its moments, and I love the final five minutes.

Score: 7/10

Terror Of The Vervoids

A fairly straightforward tale of whodunit and why, with a monster thrown in. Quite fun really. Bonnie Langford starts off quite promisingly. The scene of Doland lifting his hand into frame with a vervoid sting embedded in it is another early memory. It has lots of silly stuff in it. Incinerating towels after one use? A hijack proof bridge thats just been hijacked? And why doesnt anyone show any ill effects from the release of carbon dioxide and intense light in a confined area at the end?

Score: 7/10

The Ultimate Foe

The sight of Colin being dragged under the mud was too much for my seven-year-old mind, and I refused to watch the following week. I wish Id know it was the last episode. I didnt find out how it ended for six yeas! Considering the mess behind the scenes its amazing its as coherent as it is. Good stuff. Actually some cracking stuff in part 13. But the end is a bit disappointing, and Peris survival is too. And Mel has the pick up the TV and hurl it out the window line: Thats it Doc, now were getting at the dirt! Gaaaaahhhh!!!!

Score: 8/10

[Pip Madeley]

The Mysterious Planet - 3/10
Mindwarp - 5/10
Terror of the Vervoids - 3/10
The Ultimate Foe - 7/10

It could've been a great season.

Note to MacNimon: as with the Question Time thread recently, the thread will need closing when it reaches 999, and a new one opening.

[MacNimon]

As the original thread has now almost reached the maximum 999 posts, it's time to start a new thread. So we'll just continue where we left of, with Trial Of A Time Lord....

Season 23

Marks out of 10 please for...

The Mysterious Planet
Mindwarp
Terror of the Vervoids
The Ultimate Foe

[Andrew Curnow]

Hope it's OK with you, Mac - I've moved all the season 23 posts from the original thread onto this new one, as it seems to make sense to keep them all together.

Plus then in years to come when we look back, and see season 23 starting a brand new thread we'll all mis-remember, and assume there was some kind of 18 month hiatus between the two threads.

Well, I will, I get easily confused.

Anyway, back to giving high scores for TOATL - come on people, let's see those 10s!!

[Wayne]

Clever Lupton!

[Logo Polish]

Shouldn't someone change the title of the former thread now that Season 23 doesn't start on there?

[Carol Baynes]

I think I would have loved "The Trail..." as a kind of Greatest hits package, with Colin defending evidence from his previous incarnations. I can just imagine The Valeyard introducing scenes from the sea base where the silurians meet a nasty death...or maybe not, as we'd have to see "warriors of the deep" again. But you get the idea. The fact it was all Colin never made much sense in the context of a trial, although it had to be since he was the current on-screen Doctor. Maybe it shoud have been a 'special' if the show had been held in better esteem at the time. That way, we could have had the 'real' season 23 with the Celestial toymaker and Ice warriors!

As for my marks, I haven't seen this in years, so my marks are going to be way late. I've seen the first episode and it' snowhere near as bad as I remember it, but there are 14 episodes to go.
Also, here's a thought- if Colin had stayed for much longer, and had more stories to his name, would most of you happily refer to "Trial" as one 14 part story, rather than dividing it up into four? As far as the public are concerned that's what it is, it says it on screen even if it was written and produced as four instalments. Ironically, I would have liked it to be four stories

[Andrew Curnow]

Shouldn't someone change the title of the former thread now that Season 23 doesn't start on there?

Well done Wilson, I was wondering who'd be first to spot that...

[Ralph]

The Mysterious Planet 3/10
Mindwarp 3/10
Terror of the Vervoids 3/10
The Ultimate Foe 5/10

[Stuart Wallis]

The Mysterious Planet 6

By no means perfect; a lot of the acting is a bit ropey. Humpy and Tanker were presumably funny in the development stage, but the actual execution... (good word for them, execution...) The actual story is clever though, and some tought's gone into making the Doctor and Peri's relationship much more interesting.

Mindwarp - 7

Colin appears to be given a good enough reason for being rather stilted at times, as noone else knows what's going either. Mind you, he does very well when he's got Nicola tied to the rocks.* Sil's not quite as good as he was last time, and Brian Blessed is Brian Blessed. (Where's the hearing aid?) The idea was rather hackneyed by 1985, but done reasonably well. I was going to give this 6, but an extra point for the ending.

Terror of the Vervoids 7.5

The best part of the series. A good take on another hackneyed plot, used on Who on Robots Of Death already, but this story's nearer to a standard detective story.

The Ultimate Foe 5

Rather rushed second episode, and rather rushed ending for the series as a whole, but the first episode is the best of the series. Pity that the Matrix business has been done before in Who, and somewhat better.

* - That's got Tim listening!

[Dirk Gently]

Did someone mention a tied up Nicola?

[Matthew T]

The Mysterious Planet 6/10
Mindwarp 7/10 [Last 10 minutes of episode 8 are stunning, shame it was ruined in episode 14]
Terror of the Vervoids 6/10
The Ultimate Foe 5/10

[Stuart Wallis]

Did someone mention a tied up Nicola?

Predictable as ever, Doctor.

[Milky Tears]

This thread is shagged. Where am I?