Moore blames women for 'banal' TV

[Pip Madeley]

Patrick Moore, the oldest man alive (or so it seems) thinks women have ruined television.

British TV standards are deteriorating because the BBC is "run by women", astronomer Sir Patrick Moore has said.

The Sky at Night host also described female newsreaders as "jokey" and called for separate channels to cater for the needs of the different sexes. "I think it may eventually happen", the 84-year-old told the Radio Times. A BBC spokesman described Sir Patrick as being one of TV's best-loved figures and said his "forthright" views were "what we all love about him".

The presenter said: "The trouble is the BBC now is run by women and it shows soap operas, cooking, quizzes, kitchen-sink plays. You wouldn't have had that in the golden days. I would like to see two independent wavelengths - one controlled by women, and one for us, controlled by men."

He claimed that interesting programmes were screened too late at night, and said he would "rather be dead in a ditch" than appear on Celebrity Big Brother.

And asked about his favourite series, Sir Patrick said he no longer enjoyed certain programmes because of their modern storylines. "I used to watch Doctor Who and Star Trek, but they went PC - making women commanders, that kind of thing. I stopped watching."

Sir Patrick appears in the Guinness Book of Records as the longest-serving TV presenter, having appeared on his show about astronomy since 1957.

"Wot you lookin' at, bitch? Get back in the kitchen and make me an omelette."
-- Patrick Moore, yesterday

[Dirk Gently]

He's only saying what we're all thinking.

...and said he would "rather be dead in a ditch" than appear on Celebrity Big Brother.

He's not the only one.

[Alex]

I just read this on yahoo and was immensely disappointed in the man. I mean, it's just nonsense, isn't it? I never had him down as an old fashioned sexist man, but it does seem he is.

It should be noted of course that the majority of the programmes he mentions in that article were created by men - especially the soaps - Coronation Street was by Tony Warren, Brookside and Hollyoaks by Phil Redmond, Eastenders was by script writer Tony Holland and producer Julia Smith, Emmerdale by Kevin Laffin, etc, whilst an awful lot of quiz series formats are by men too.

The fact that he has a problem with Star Trek Voyager (presumably, as that's the only one with a female commander) is bizarre, if he didn't like it for somewhat ropey plots and an insistence on using the Borg a bit too much that'd be fair enough, but imo the all too macho Enterprise was much much worse.

Anyhoo, erm, yeah, I won't go on, but it is very disappointing to hear such words from a man I'd previously thought was worthy of a lot of respect.

[Ralph]

I say good on Pat for speaking his mind!

I think he's got a point too!

[Milky Tears]

He might have a point, but he's still a bitter/bloated old ****.

and said he would "rather be dead in a ditch" than appear on Celebrity Big Brother.

I look forward to it!

[Rob McCow]

TV hasn't been the same since Gamesmaster was cancelled. That's what's really upset him.

[Alex]

I'm surprised that anyone thinks he has a point, I really do think that nearly everything he says is rubbish, he's saying things like "The trouble is the BBC now is run by women and it shows soap operas, cooking, quizzes, kitchen-sink plays" but it's just not true.

For example, here's a list of the beeb's executive board (who are the people who generally decide the direction the channel should go in):

Director-General and Chair, Executive Board Mark Thompson
Deputy Director-General Mark Byford
Director, Audio & Music Jenny Abramsky
Director, Vision Jana Bennett
Director, Marketing, Communications & Audiences Tim Davie
Director, Future Media & Technology Ashley Highfield
Director, People Stephen Kelly
Group Finance Director Zarin Patel
Chief Executive, BBC Worldwide John Smith
Chief Operating Officer Caroline Thomson

Non-executive Directors

Senior Independent Director Marcus Agius
Non-executive Director Dr Mike Lynch OBE
Non-executive Director David Robbie
Non-executive Director Dr Samir Shah OBE
Non-executive Director Robert Webb QC

There's, what, three female names amongst that list? I know there are a lot more female producers than in the past, but they're just responsible for making the type of shows that the beeb wants to show, and there are still far more men making absolutely rubbish tv than there are women too.

Just out of interest, for those who think he's got a point, how do you back this up?

[Ralph]

Just out of interest, for those who think he's got a point, how do you back this up?

I'll come back to this later Alex but the media lap up this kind of thing. I like Pat for being honest in what he thinks rather than pandering to political correctness. When you get to age 84 I think you should be entitled to speak your mind. Anyway I'll come back to this later

[Jon Masters]

If you read his autobiog, Alex, you'll realise that a lot of what he says is (a) Straight out of his head and (b) Not very seriously meant anyway.

At his age I think he's just decided he doesn't give a toss about what people think about what he says.

[Alex]

Oh I can imagine that Jon, I'm just surprised that anyone agrees with him. I just looked at my comment above about how people might "back up the idea" that he's right and it sounds a bit serious, which I didn't mean it to too much, but I just really think he's talking nonsense there and wondered just out of interest why anyone would think it really is the case.

[Ralph]

Getting back to this:

For a start we don't know how long this interview was, what questions were put to him and what the context was in which the statement's been made. Journalists can vary considerably in quality and one looking for cheap shots will easily get a seemingly controversial statement from an elderly forthright gentleman. I would expect most people of this age do not seek to be populist - I'll bet if you talk to your elderly relatives you'll find they speak their mind and good on them.

I think for example the view that politically correct influence on television such as Star Trek has made it different is a valid one to hold and if that makes it less entertaining to an individual or group for whatever reasons they're entitled to say it. I also agree with his point that there are too many of the types of programme he describes, whether this is can be attributed to women I can't say but certainly the programming he describes tends to be aimed at women.

I believe our society is rife with hypocrisy - those who run the country and in positions of influence and power be it politicians or celebs dish out what we want to hear all of the time. When you get to the older generations they simply cut the bull I reckon and thats refreshing.

I don't think Moore should lose any of the "respect" you mention Alex for giving his views he should be applauded for being honest

What makes a person worthy of "respect" anyway. I think we'll all have different definitions of this.

On the whole I see this as somewhat tongue in cheek. His reported comments made me smile

[Captain Tancredi]

Perhaps the problem isn't necessarily women making the decisions, but TV executives of both sexes making scheduling decisions based on the assumption that women will be the majority of their audience for most of the day apart from a few hours in the evening (well, somebody's got to make the dinner and wash the dishes) and assuming that most women are more interested in undemanding lifestyle programming rather than anything creative or interesting.

[Paul Clement]

Perhaps the problem isn't necessarily women making the decisions, but TV executives of both sexes making scheduling decisions based on the assumption that women will be the majority of their audience for most of the day apart from a few hours in the evening (well, somebody's got to make the dinner and wash the dishes) and assuming that most women are more interested in undemanding lifestyle programming rather than anything creative or interesting.

That actually makes a lot of sense. The daytime TV schedule is designed specifically with women in mind, and I also think the broadcasters know a large percentage of soap watchers are female.

[Alex]

Getting back to this:

For a start we don't know how long this interview was, what questions were put to him and what the context was in which the statement's been made. Journalists can vary considerably in quality and one looking for cheap shots will easily get a seemingly controversial statement from an elderly forthright gentleman. I would expect most people of this age do not seek to be populist - I'll bet if you talk to your elderly relatives you'll find they speak their mind and good on them.

That's very true on the journalist front, I suppose the comments could be taken out of context quite easily - though I'm still a little wary as it's not as if it was just one small comment. I like people to speak their mind whatever age they are to be honest, but I still wouldn't agree with someone if they were being sexist / racist / homophobic or offensive to the way I think whatever their age. Fortunately my family are all fairly liberal so I've not had to encounter too many situations like that.

I think for example the view that politically correct influence on television such as Star Trek has made it different is a valid one to hold and if that makes it less entertaining to an individual or group for whatever reasons they're entitled to say it. I also agree with his point that there are too many of the types of programme he describes, whether this is can be attributed to women I can't say but certainly the programming he describes tends to be aimed at women.

I'm against Political Correctness as well, but I don't think the fact that Voyager had a female lead affected it negatively - infact I think it was one of it's biggest strengths - and like I said, the all too macho Enterprise was far worse imo! I know what you mean about too many programmes being aimed at women, but I'd say most of these are daytime shows, and fortunately I don't watch tv during the day.

I believe our society is rife with hypocrisy - those who run the country and in positions of influence and power be it politicians or celebs dish out what we want to hear all of the time. When you get to the older generations they simply cut the bull I reckon and thats refreshing.

I don't think Moore should lose any of the "respect" you mention Alex for giving his views he should be applauded for being honest

But just to play devil's advocate Ralph, what would you're reaction have been if he'd said "Bloody blacks are making way too many shows, it's ruining tv" - just because he's old, surely that doesn't make it acceptable?

What makes a person worthy of "respect" anyway. I think we'll all have different definitions of this.

On the whole I see this as somewhat tongue in cheek. His reported comments made me smile

Well, I just respected the way he devoted his life to something I'm also fascinated by, and before hand he'd seemed very wise and intelligent so such comments surprised me. But well, if they are tongue in cheek that would be forgivable, I guess again it all depends on how the journalist interpreted hs comments, and whether he did mean them or not...

Btw, I'm enjoying this thread, I do like a good debate from time to time!

[Carol Baynes]

He'd soon change his tune with me sat on his knee in a Star Trek costume.

...then again, it might back up his argument!

[Ralph]

But just to play devil's advocate Ralph, what would you're reaction have been if he'd said "Bloody blacks are making way too many shows, it's ruining tv" - just because he's old, surely that doesn't make it acceptable?

Yeah that would be going too far sure but I think being a bit sexist in our comments now and again is like someone calling me a jock down in England, it's a bit of leg pulling and light banter to stir things up. I particularly enjoyed Pip's quote giving the ultimate sterotypical statement .

Well, I just respected the way he devoted his life to something I'm also fascinated by, and before hand he'd seemed very wise and intelligent so such comments surprised me. But well, if they are tongue in cheek that would be forgivable, I guess again it all depends on how the journalist interpreted hs comments, and whether he did mean them or not...

But then again Pat has always been an eccentric as well and he's certainly been affectionately (I think) poked fun at by impressionists over the years. From what I've seen he's always been willing to laugh at himself. Magnus Pyke whose long gone was of a similar ilk, if anyone remembers him.

Btw, I'm enjoying this thread, I do like a good debate from time to time!

I agree it's good to have some healthy debate - I have a tendency now and again to be in the mood to play devil's advocate for reaction.

[Ralph]

He'd soon change his tune with me sat on his knee in a Star Trek costume.

...then again, it might back up his argument!

No harm for you to try on one of those '60s outfits Carol

[Carol Baynes]

No harm for you to try on one of those '60s outfits Carol

Not an outfit to wear in winter though, one imagines!

Magnus Pyke...there's a name I haven't heard in years. I remember him quite well, yes.

[Jeff]

I would like to see two independent wavelengths - one controlled by women, and one for us, controlled by men."

I'm guessing the 'Lifetime' network and 'Spike TV' aren't available over there then?


(though I might point out that neither is, as far as I know, controlled by one sex, but rather are aimed at different genders)

[Pip Madeley]

He'd soon change his tune with me sat on his knee in a Star Trek costume.

I don't think so Carol, he's already got regular pussy:







(that post could get me demoted )

[Wayne]

To put it leniently, i think he's putting 2+2 together & making 5.
Yes, there's some appalling crap on tv today, but his reasons don't really stand up to anything like scrutiny. TV is a reflection of our society, & if you wanted to look at all the factors invlolved in today's society/today's tv, you'd probably have to do a 5year PHD to cover it all. It's too easy to just blame so called political correctness. It's a lazy argument, & i apologize in advance because it leads me to a Star Trek rant.
Those not interested in Star Trek, skip to the *

The Star Trek thing is subjective. Using the argument that the modern Star Trek shows became too 'PC' just doesn't wash with me. The fact that they had a black captain or a female captain is totally immaterial to the quality of the shows concerned. It's just down to personal taste. I can totally see why a lot of younger folk can't relate to the original Star Trek, but i grew up with so i love it. The sequel shows are a different animal altogether. To be honest even as an avid TOS fan, i have to admit that some the best eps of the sequels have far more depth to them that TOS. The writing, the stories, the characterizations, are much richer & more 3 dimensional than Kirk going around snogging women etc...
But equally, the best of TOS eps were groundbreaking for their time. There was some excellent & really thought provoking stories that were much broader than it's revisionist reputation suggests. As well as having some great Sci-Fi stories, it tackled issues & political themes via allegory as much as it could in those days & still stay on tv, & i think it's a shame that many people turn their nose up at it because of it's old fashioned style.
Equally, i know fans of the old series that are just as bad in reverse, & use lame arguments like the alledged PC factor, in an attempt to give their personal tastes some sort justification. It's as much of a shame that they also for their part, can't see past the different style & more modern trappings, because they're missing out on some truly great stories, not all of it by any means, but there's a lot superb stuff in there, Not just in terms of Sci-Fi, but in a much broader sense. The simple truth is that there's good & bad in both old & new Trek. Much like there is in both old & new Who, & pretty much anything else. You can't generalise & be accurate.
It's worth remembering that people like Gene Roddenberry & Gene Coon, & others who worked on TOS in the 60's, were fighting the network all the way on things which are consdered PC. Roddenberry fought to get a black woman, not just in the show, but as part of the regular cast in command crew on the bridge, because he thought it was important. Ok, any Trek fan will own up to the fact that the Uhura's character was never fleshed out very much, & looking at it from today's perspective, the character can rather cynically IMO, be seen as the token black, who was little more than the Enterprise's telephone receptionist. It's easy to take that attitude 40 odd years later, now that it's a perfectly ordinary thing, but in 60's America things were very different.
Star Trek presented a mult-racial crew with black/asian/russian etc crewmember, & the character of Spock was also conceived partially as a vehicle for tackling present day bigotry, in a future where the folk of Earth have learned to overcome such superficial differences.
So if anyone wants to talk about modern Star Trek being too PC, then i'd argue it always has been. Having a black captain & more relevant to this thread a woman captain, are only extensions on the the kind of show that Star Trek always was, & always intended to be, right from the start.
So IMO, Patrick Moore is talking bollocks.

*rant over.

Btw... I fully accept that dressing the female cast up in mini-skirts isn't really consisent with the Star Trek has always aimed to be PC argument. But then, it was the 60's, & luckily even Gene Roddenberry wasn't perfect.
Anyway back to Patrick Moore:
Leaving aside whether or not it's sexist, to blame women is just silly. It's illogical Captain. He may be a very intelligent bloke, who's an expert in his field, (& he's a great jazz vibes player too!) but it strikes me than he's speaking out of ignorance more than anything. But he's 84. He comes from a totally different generation, & he's more than likely too old to change now.
What dissapoints me more than anything is the generalization. I know a lot of women who have no interest whatsoever in so called 'women's tv', anyway!
Anyway..... I've run out of steam, after getting sidetracked into a Star Trek rant.
Basically, Patrick Moore is a perhaps silly (but ultimately harmless) old sod for his comments, but i'm sure he's not malicious.

[Pip Madeley]

"Dude, you gotta introduce me to that black chick."

[Wayne]

Classic.

[Ralph]

I think Wayne's just anti-Moore full stop.

Interesting argument on the Trek - just as well I'm one of those people who appreciates the later stuff too

Nice one Pip