Metric Martyr's Win Victory

[Si Hunt]

Campaigners fighting EU plans to remove imperial measures have claimed a victory for pounds and ounces.

Britain's traditional imperial measures had been set a deadline of 2009 to change to metric measures, but that has now been scrapped following a change of heart at the European Commission.

Both the Metric Martyrs campaign group and the Conservative Party and have claimed victory in the battle to keep Britain imperial.

Conservative industry spokesman, Giles Chichester MEP, said that he had received confirmation from the European Commission's Industry Commissioner Gunther Verheugen that dual marking of goods in imperial and metric will "continue indefinitely".

He said that following lobbying by the Conservatives, Mr Verheugen agreed that it was good news for British and European industry to maintain imperial measurements as it would make selling to the US easier for firms.

Mr Chichester said: "After saving the crown on the British pint, I am happy the Conservatives have persuaded the Commission that it is good not only for international business but for the British people that traditional measurements are kept."

He continued: "I just hope there won't be any more need for Metric Martyrs and that the Government will avoid forcing metrication down the public's throat."

A spokeswoman for the commissioner said that during recent consultation, respondents successfully made the case to be allowed to use imperial measures - "supplementary indications" - alongside metric beyond 2009.

Is this a victory for common sense? Or will it mean anyone educated in the last twenty years will still be forced to use an antiquated system they don't understand because some crusty old duffers on the market won't accept change?

YOU BLOODY WELL DECIDE!

Si.

[Pip Madeley]

I weight myself in stones.

I buy my milk in pint measures.

I measure my penis in inches (or should that be yards?).

I am British and I want it to stay that way.

[Si Hunt]

I don't see what being British has to do with it - I'm British and I'm metric!

Let's face it, they made a right old mess of converting us though. In my lifetime, why has milk always been sold in pints and sugar in grams?

Si.

[Rob McCow]

Oh, well done the Imperial Saps. Let's keep using measurements based on the approximate size of a man's foot. Does it matter if we measure how big an idiot the Metric Martyr is in feet or metres? Or how much time he's wasted in hours or years?

If the metric system had been invented by an Englishman, rest assured we'd be telling the world how brilliant it was. It's only because the British are inherently racist that we haven't adopted it already.

[Si Hunt]

I think all old people deserve to be burned because all they do is complain and smell of cabbage.

Si.

[SiHart]

The imperial system is so random. At least the metric system makes some kind of sense and follows a rational kind of order.

Si xx

[cullsoft]

Meh, I cope perfectly fine with both.

...ok, so I got a bit lost with some of the different imperial measurements, but it's not like I have any issues with using either method.

[Jason Thompson]

I really don't see why both sets of units can't co-exist. Trying to force us to use one over the other is just pointless and breeds resentment, as we have seen.

The fact is that a large number of people grew up with pounds, ounces, stones etc. and are now very comfortable using them. Weather forecasters still give temperatures in both celcius and fahrenheit, and why not? I can see where standardising for industrial use and such like might be useful, but not for the man on the street who wants to buy a pound of spuds or a pint of beer. Scales can be set that display both sets of units. Every recipe book I've ever had includes both and a conversion chart.

A total conversion will come by gradually standardising the way wholesalers distribute, by using the metric system in schools, and so on. Trying to force one system out altogether before everyone is comfortable with the other just causes problems. I can use either system quite happily, though if you ask me how tall I am I'll give it to you in feet and inches. The metric system makes a lot more sense of course, but the simple fact is that large numbers of people grew up with a totally different system which makes sense to them.

Metrication also doesn't change the fact that milk is still sold in bottles that contain whole numbers of pints, that standard rulers are still made in 6-inch or 12-inch lengths, that pint and half-pint glasses are still the common sizes used in pubs. Whatever system is used as standard, I can't see anyone going into a pub and asking for 0.57 litres of best bitter.

[Si Hunt]

I really don't see why both sets of units can't co-exist. Trying to force us to use one over the other is just pointless and breeds resentment, as we have seen.

The point is, that was a decision to be made before they brought metric in. If you're going to force us, do it and change, if you're not, don't. But don't bring in a new system, teach two generations of kids to use it, then decide we can't be "forced" to use the old system after all.

I hate the way that I came out of fifteen years of education to find I didn't know how to measure groceries in a shop, yet all the old people did. How pointless is that? And how can schools equip youngsters for a world which uses a system they arn't allowed to teach?

Weather forecasters still give temperatures in both celcius and fahrenheit, and why not?

Because surely it's desirable for such things to be given in ONE measurement, not two? For basic reasons of efficiency.

Trying to force one system out altogether before everyone is comfortable with the other just causes problems.

But how long do we give the old anti-metric brigade? They've had forty years (or whatever)? One might say they've had just about enough time to get "comfortable" with the new way of doing things, as have retailers had enough time to sort out selling milk and beer in metric units. We should be buying 2 litres, not 4 pints (2.123 litres).

Si.

[SiHart]

It's certainly confusing. In our fridge at home at the moment we have a 2 litre bottle of milk and a 4 pint bottle. Some of our local shops sell milk in litres now, but charge you more for 2 litres than 4 pints, despite 4 pints being more actual milk. But milk is the only liquid other than alcohol sold in pints. All your fizzy drinks and squash and stuff are sold in litres. I think in time it will all be standardised, but they'll do so gradually we won't notice.

Si xx

[Si Hunt]

They're certainly doing it gradually. Maybe by the time my sister's grandchildren hit pensionable age, they'll have managed to standardise how they sell milk.

Si.

[Dave Lewis]

I measure my penis in inches

I measure mine in centimetres because it makes it sound bigger than it is...

[Si Hunt]

Surely Pips 200mm sounds bigger than your 2cm though? You should go the other way, and measure it in nanometres, then it'll have eight zeroes or something.

Si.

[SiHart]

Pip's measuring in inches, not mm.

See, it's ever so confusing!

Si xx

[Dave Lewis]

My 2cm????

Who's been talking?

[Si Hunt]

They said they were talking you up my dear!

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

If you're going to force us, do it and change, if you're not, don't. But don't bring in a new system, teach two generations of kids to use it, then decide we can't be "forced" to use the old system after all.

The 'forcing' will come when areas convert gradually. Change all roadsigns to kilometres, and speed limits to km/h, and you'll soon have people thinking in kilometres instead of miles. This is what I mean. 'Force' the change by bringing big things in, not forcing little things out. Change roadsigns across the country, don't penalise little shops in small villages. Standardise wholesale trading units, don't tell us we can't ask for a pint in our local.

I hate the way that I came out of fifteen years of education to find I didn't know how to measure groceries in a shop, yet all the old people did. How pointless is that?

Because of course it's solely the responsibility of schools to educate people.

Turn that sentiment around: how annoyed would you be if after years of education and a lifetime using one system you were suddenly told you can't use it and you have to use this new system that all the youngsters use and you don't understand because no-one taught you about it?

And how can schools equip youngsters for a world which uses a system they arn't allowed to teach?

However, despite my above comment, I agree with that. I see nothing wrong with schools teaching using metric as a standard, but including a brief bit about converting into older units still used by some people. To flat-out state that schools cannot teach anything about one system is daft.

Because surely it's desirable for such things to be given in ONE measurement, not two? For basic reasons of efficiency.

But the Fahrenheit measure is only given as an aside by the forecaster for the benefit of those who still think in those units. The maps and online forecasts have standardised to celcius.

But how long do we give the old anti-metric brigade?

Depends what they're fighting for. Against any metric conversion they're fighting a losing battle. However, I think they are quite right to protest against legal penalties for small businesses who refuse to stop using the measurements they've used all their lives. They'll convert when everything else does. When they have to order everything in kilograms and litres, and most customers ask for things in kilograms and litres, they'll convert or go under. Until then, why try to force them by imposing penalties? Tell them they have to be able to use both, but don't tell them they can't use one system at all.

Metric conversion will happen, and it will happen easiest by spreading it through systems in such a way that people have to use it, not by trying to force people to use it by penalising them for not using it. It's not the use of metric units that is the issue here so much as the idea that you can suffer penalties for not using them, I think.

[Si Hunt]

Because of course it's solely the responsibility of schools to educate people.

I think it IS up to schools to teach you how to use the measuring system. I think this because my school tought me how to use the measuring system. Shame it was a different one to the one the shops use.

Turn that sentiment around: how annoyed would you be if after years of education and a lifetime using one system you were suddenly told you can't use it and you have to use this new system that all the youngsters use and you don't understand because no-one taught you about it?

"suddenly"? It's been DECADES.

Si.

[Jon Masters]

I think it IS up to schools to teach you how to use the measuring system. I think this because my school tought me how to use the measuring system. Shame it was a different one to the one the shops use.

Having taught GCSE Maths in the past, I believe even the new courses still have a section on how to convert metric to imperial and back again, more as a skill rather than learning how many furlongs in a kilometre.

Of course in Science I'm always having to remind pupils to use metric units because the formulae we use are based around them. And the use of 100 or 1000 as multiplyers makes things more logical.

Of course (as I'm off to a meeting) I have to play devil's advocate.
(a) The metric measurements are also based on arbitary values which physics has had to work damned hard at since to come up with a perfect definition (and for mass there still isn't one). So fundamentally its no more useful than a standardised imperial one would be.
(b) Kids of today would do much better if we had a metric time system.

Discuss (10 marks)

[Milky Tears]

All the best Mini Pip gags have been used already.

[Rob McCow]

(a) The metric measurements are also based on arbitary values which physics has had to work damned hard at since to come up with a perfect definition (and for mass there still isn't one). So fundamentally its no more useful than a standardised imperial one would be.

It's still better to say a horse is three metres tall, rather than 15 spans tall.

(b) Kids of today would do much better if we had a metric time system.

Kids of today would do much better if we didn't use base 10 for everything. If we used base 6 (I think) the time system would make much more sense!

[Si Hunt]

I think we should all measure time in Rels.

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

"suddenly"? It's been DECADES.

No, it's been decades since metric was first introduced. If you suddenly found that you not only couldn't use the system you were most comfortable with but that you could face criminal proceedings for doing so, I imagine you'd be a tad pissed off. That's the problem with recent metric conversion initiatives.

[Dirk Gently]

To be honest it's only KPH to MPH I have a problem with. Trying to work out that 148KPH is 88MPH (or what ever the hell it is) is the only time I get stuck.
I fill my car & pay in Litres, I work out fuel economy in Miles per Gallon not Litres per Kilometre.

It's always 10 miles away & not 16.whatever Kilometres. Because I wasn't taught about converting them & I've never looked in to it.
I can convert imperial/metric and back again quite easily for the most part, but then that was how I was taught. I also used to work where both were in constant use.

Jason is perfectly correct though, for there to be a metric revolution (i.e changing everyone to metric) then the Government has to lead the way by changing the BIG things. The first thing to do is to dual sign on the roads, posting distances in both Miles & Kilometres. As has already been said, we have dual measuring on food stuffs as it is, this has to be widened for those who were taught metric only.

[Wayne]

I asked for half a pound of turkey off the bone at the deli in Tesco today. Am i an imperial sap?
(For the record - call me sap anytime, but 'imperial' makes me sound like an old colonial tory boy that still uses words like "bally".)

Seriously though, I'm used to imperial measures i suppose, but to add things up in tens makes loads more sense doesn't it?
I mean thank god for Decimalization! So, no i'm not opposed to throwing out imperial measures. It is what i'm used to, but only because they've kept it hanging around for so long.
If we'd gone fully metric in 1971 as well, then i'd be used to that, wouldn't i? So i agree with Si, in principle. Although it's not something i could get heated about.