What would the Doctor Who - killing baby Hitler ...

[WhiteCrow]

It's one of the oldest moral dilemnas about time travel, "if you travelled back in time and met Hitler as a child, could you kill him".

And it's even said in a roundabout way in Genesis of the Daleks. We each have our own take on it morally.

But what do you think the Doctor would do?

It's kind of hard, we know the Doctor likes to intervene in alien threats to time and the Earth. So if Hitler were backed by an evil Sontaran alliance, no question he'd get involved.

But Hitler as just an evil man, purely part of human history. What would he do? It doesn't help we only have the first two Doctors tales of the "historicals" to give us clues to how the Doctor behaves in pure human history.

Being the great "humanitarian" (don't pick bones about him being a "Gallifreyian"), would he try to preserve life? Or would he view it as an important part of human history, a lesson we have to learn for ourselves?

[Logo Polish]

No different from him not killing Napoleon or Robespierre on principle, presumably.

[Carol Baynes]

This is a tough one, because of all that has happend good as well as bad because of the rise of Hitler and Nazi Germany. The world could be a very different place without them, They were an evil that had to be fought, but the great good that came through having to do that....it's a tough one.
Plus the whole of time and space may well be occurring/existing 'at once' (time being relative and all that) so could you actually do it? Free will aside, could you actually manage to do it, or would the universe conspire to set things down a certain route no matter what you did? Changing history is a head **** you might not want to get into. Not with me anyway. I don't just think outside the box, I dismantle it.

[Andrew Curnow]

"For all their great evil... must come something good"?

[Dave Tudor]

I always thought that the Doctor's insistence that history could not be altered was a bit iffy, as surely for a Time Lord, a being who effectively lives outside time, there is no such thing as past, present or future - all events have happened, are happening, will happen, if you see what I mean.

I realise that for dramatic reasons, and for the sake of the viewer, that, for example, the Doctor refusing to prevent the Daleks from hollowing out the Earth because history says that this is how it happened would have had less significance than preventing Barbara from saving the Aztecs, but why is he quite happy to interfere in the contemporary viewer's future, but not with that same viewer's notion of the past? And why does he constantly interfere in other planets' histories, regardless of whether or not those events occuring in the 'past' or 'future'?

Hmm, that's got no relevance to the original question, has it?

[Captain Tancredi]

I suspect the point would be that Hitler had a choice at every step of the way and he had to have the freedom to make that choice- plus the Nazis were able to seize and hold on to power because of the conditions in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s. If it hadn't been Hitler, the Nazis might have come to power with another leader, or Germany might have had a Communist dictatorship instead of a National Socialist one.

[Dave Tudor]

Another random thought: why has the Doctor heard of Hitler, but not, for example, Salamander?

I know that if we think about all this too much, it all falls apart, and that we should enoy it for what it is (which I do), but, all the same, this whole 'history' thing was always a bit shaky.

[Ralph]

It's one of the oldest moral dilemnas about time travel, "if you travelled back in time and met Hitler as a child, could you kill him".
?

A resounding no! There can be no justification to murder any child.

But Hitler as just an evil man, purely part of human history. What would he do?

Hitler's rise and the unification of the countries against his evil regime propelled the world forward whether we like it or not. This gets back to that controversial discussion that war is good for technology as it expediates development, necessity being the mother of invention and all that. The lifestyle we enjoy today was enhanced by the huge turmoil in the first half of the 20th century. Some of these developments would be in the medical field -probably many are still alive today as a result.

Being the great "humanitarian" , would he try to preserve life? Or would he view it as an important part of human history, a lesson we have to learn for ourselves?

How did the Time Lords come into being? - he must look first at how his own society developed before making judgement on others

[Lord President]

I am of the opinion that Hitler was the product of Allied disarmament and oppression of Germany between the wars. If there had been no Hitler, there would have been another to take his place, probably a better strategist and less insane, culminating in a possible win by Germany. Would any of us want to see that?

Hitler was an evil man, but also part of an evil organisation, surrounded by evil men. No single man can be held solely responsible for the attrocities, but as a figurehead he is considered the root of all Nazi evil.

[Logo Polish]

If there had been no Hitler, there would have been another to take his place, probably a better strategist and less insane, culminating in a possible win by Germany. Would any of us want to see that?

Ace raises the possibility of killing Hitler in the 1920s with the Doctor in the Tymewrym: Exodus book, and that's pretty much the reason he gives there as to why it wouldn't be a good idea to try.

[Wayne]

As others have said, If it hadn't been Hitler, it might just as easily've been someone else. But without going into the whole time paradox thing; I don't think killing a young Hitler would be neccesary. Perhaps trying to change his way of thinking, or at least try to influence his views for the better, would be the way to go.

[Doctor Vendetta]

This was answered in a way in Terrance Dick's 'Timewyrm: Exodus', where not only does the Doctor not kill Hitler, but re-sets his dislocated shoulder and re-invigorates his ambition to rule Germany. This is mostly to prevent anyone even worse from ruling, and to make sure that history continues along its course after aliens start tampering with it. Typically 7th Doctor in its moral abiguity, I felt.

[Jason Thompson]

History is never as simple as removing or preventing a single event or person from happening. Take away World War II and you lose a lot of technological advancement that was accelerated by the war efforts. Of particular interest from my point of view is the space age, which was started by the development of the V2 rocket, and continued when the US and USSR captured German rocket scientists and parts for their own research. Wernher von Braun, without the Nazis and their funding, would have been no more than a backyard rocket builder, and would never have gone on to design the Redstone missile that launched America's first astronaut, or the mighty Saturn rockets that propelled America to the Moon. Nor would Russia have had the R-7 ICBM, as Korolev would have been left in his gulag to rot rather than being pardoned and set to work building rockets.

The atomic age would never have come about, or at least would not have done so when it did. Could be a good thing, I hear you say, but what of the increasing demand for electricity from the growing population? Wold be be chucking more and more smoke and fumes into the air from chemical power plants? Is that any better?

Medical research was advanced by the need to treat lots of men very quickly. As disturbing as it is, it was also advanced by the highly unethical experiments conducted by the Nazis on Jews and other 'undesirables'.

It brought about political reform, such as the welfare state, the United Nations, and other things. It changed the economic future of countries such as Japan. It caused several countries formerly run by others to be able to set up their own rule. It was a shocking demonstration of the horrors that industrialised warfare could wreak upon the entire planet that has been etched in the consciounesses of many millions of people, even those who were not there.

And, from a more personal viewpoint, had the war never happened, my granmother would never have met my grandfather, so my mother would not have been born, and Emma's grandparents would never have fled the advancing Nazis to settle in this country.

World War II was a nearly inevitable consequence of World War I. Had it not happened in 1939 it would probably have happened at some later point as the humiliation of the German nation bred resentment. It's a crucial piece of history, and killing the one man who is often blamed for the whole affair would be a disaster. Yes, we could save millions of lives, but at least we know the benefits that came after that conflict. Could anyone kill Hitler and be certain there would be no war? Is the future without Hitler any better than the one we have?

[Milky Tears]

This thread title fits the Dad's Army theme choon...

[Lord President]

This thread title fits the Dad's Army theme choon...

It also makes no sense!

[Fatso the wombat]

Nah. I think I'd try my best to influence the child, and to try to ensure that he didn't grow up to be the Hitler we know.

[WhiteCrow]

How did the Time Lords come into being? - he must look first at how his own society developed before making judgement on others

Yes the Doctor sometimes mentions the dark times before Rassilon, and that Time Lords moved on from their past. Likewise some of the bad things in human history are our mistakes and we have to learn from them and move on.

[Paul Monk]

Jason speaks the truth.