New world order or New daft paranoia?!

[Carol Baynes]

Currently looking forward to the last weekend of legal smoking in public spaces in England. It's going to be weird, but might help me quit...

....but enough about the positives. I'm starting to get worried. There seem to be a lot of civil liberties slowly eroding away. We believe everything we're told, and even if we don't, we go along with a kind of apathy. Look at the state of politics with the voting turn outs. We're fed a diet of banal telly and sound and distracted from what matters, perhaps???
Oh, I don't know, I've been reading a lot of scary stuff recently, and honestly think we're heading towards a time of the 'thought police'. I think there's a lot of control in society and it's getting worse, especially when we believe 'they' are doing us good and protecting us (which I'm led to believe may not be entirely true).

What do you think? Are you happy with the potential future of the world? What do you think that'll be? Or (gasp) could there be a long term machievellian schem of plotting to get us to succumb to some kind of global police state? (worse case scenario there, of course!)

[Darren]

We are not numbers, we are free people!

There is a nanny state culture going on, started by New Labour, obsessed with telling us what to do, what is and isn't good for us. Are people really going to study their beer bottles tonight to make sure they don't go over their limit? It's a waste of time.
I think government always does things for a reason. The ID cards, for example, aren't a new idea, other countries already have them, but they now seem to be playing on our fears of terrorism to force them through.
More scary perhaps, is that now they want to permanantly keep DNA samples of everybody who is detained/questioned/involved about/in crimes, whether they are charged or not.
This could be a worrying indication of where we are going as a society, or it could just be confirmation that politicians are devious bastards.

Still, we have a new(ish) government now, with Blair gone. And John Reid who I never liked. Let's see what Gordon does.

[Lissa]

Here's the thing. Everyone is simultaneously worried about the breakdown of law and order and the increasingly oppressive state. Too much control and too little. No strong leadership and no following of public opinion. Politicians are too populist and too remote. 300 TV channels and nothing to watch. It's all a mess of contradictions.

Are things bad? Is this a bad world to live in? Of course they are and of course it is. But it always has been and always will be. The difference is that we now have a media which will magnify everything (except those things it chooses to suppress of course) until the abduction of one child becomes the potential abduction of every child or one Asian terrorist becomes every Asian is a terrorist.

I don't see a problem with a national DNA database - if the police find DNA at a crime scene, cross reference it against everyone in the country and they find a match. It would save an awful lot of time and money. I can't imagine the police will spend their days off cloning us for a laugh. Masses of information are already held on various governmental and non-governmental databases so why should we object to them holding something that might actually prove useful?

But however bad things are or appear to be, imagine it is the mid 1930s. You didn't need a media to make you scared, you didn't need a government to make you feel unsafe and you didn't need paranoia to make you fear the worst. Whatever's wrong right now, at least there isn't a continent falling to fascism across the channel.

[Carol Baynes]

Oh, I think if anything that bad does happen it'll be far more insidious and it'll happen right under our noses. You might even agree to it, because it'll be better than the apparant alternative....what a wonderful piece of politics that'd be. Worse case scenario again of course.

[Captain Tancredi]

I can't help feeling that there's something badly wrong somewhere in our society and sooner or later it's going to erupt in one way or another. An increasing number of the malcontents in Britain today are educated white middle-class people- the kind that the country was in the past run by and for. So when the decent people with something to lose are fed up with the system, who's for it? We're looking at the serious possibility that the next general election could have a 25-30% turnout, which suggests that the main political parties have lost touch with the values and aspirations of the majority of the population- but in those circumstances, if people don't necessarily subscribe voluntarily to the values of what used to be a society, in some circumstances perhaps you have to enforce them all the more strongly.

But perhaps we're now paying the price for never having had a revolution- we've never had an opportunity to define what Britain stands for, so ultimately it stands for nothing and everybody makes up their own reality. Or on the other hand, perhaps our used-to-be-a-society needs to break down so that it can be healed.

[Rob McCow]

Having worked for local Government as well as Government run agencies (that's TfL) in London, I can reassure you all that the Government is far, far too incompetent to really threaten us.

The future is more Brazil than 1984, in my opinion!

[WhiteCrow]

I used to smoke when there was a smoking room - now it's gone and I had to stand outside it helped me to quit (this was back in 2004).

So could be a good thing.

[Lissa]

But perhaps we're now paying the price for never having had a revolution- we've never had an opportunity to define what Britain stands for, so ultimately it stands for nothing and everybody makes up their own reality. Or on the other hand, perhaps our used-to-be-a-society needs to break down so that it can be healed.

Didn't we execute the king, abolish the monarchy and become a republic? That was quite revolutionary in its day.

[The Secretive Bus]

We might be getting told what to do but more and more people are ignoring it. People, especially children and teenagers, seem to have more freedom now then they ever did before, with far fewer punishments. And if you're always feeling down you can always walk into a restaurant, burn yourself on their coffee and sue them for it.

[WhiteCrow]

Didn't we execute the king, abolish the monarchy and become a republic? That was quite revolutionary in its day.

Yeah but being British we brought him back and said "awfully sorry" ...

[Captain Tancredi]

Didn't we execute the king, abolish the monarchy and become a republic? That was quite revolutionary in its day.

Ah, now you're on to my A-level history... the commonwealth of 1649-1660 was ultimately as much a military dictatorship as a republic, and failed because with no obvious successor to Cromwell when he died, those in power imaginatively decided to pass the Protectorship to his son, who wasn't up to the job. So in the end there came a point where Charles II was ready and willing, and there was enough support in the country to have him back. I suppose the other difference between the Commonwealth and the revolutions in America and France in particular is that ours happened slightly too early, in that the concepts of individual freedom and dignity which underpin the Declaration of Independence and the French Revolution hadn't really been formulated, or at least only in very limited circles.

[Ralph]

But however bad things are or appear to be, imagine it is the mid 1930s. You didn't need a media to make you scared, you didn't need a government to make you feel unsafe and you didn't need paranoia to make you fear the worst. Whatever's wrong right now, at least there isn't a continent falling to fascism across the channel.

Totally. I don't buy into the doom and gloom of this thread Carol - it's "daft paranoia!"

I have to listen to conversations from my Mum now and again how the country's going from bad to worse... total bollocks! and I tell her so!!!

One of my Grandfather's was 16 years old fighting in World War I along with hundreds of thousands of other teenagers. When my Mum was at school they all had gas masks. Mainland Britain was under attack in the 1940s and again millions of teenagers were sent to their deaths. After World War 2 there was the serious threat of nuclear war until the cold war ended in the late 1980s.

Paedophiles much publicised now have always been preying on kids but now we've identified a lot of these bastards from their use of the internet. How many of us probably know for example of the dodgy Jani at school in the 70s. These low life have always been around but are more exposed now.

If anything is worse it's the media but thats only because the public who buy these shite newspapers encourage it. I've rarelybought a shabby tabloid - who buys those papers??? Since 1982's Sun headline pathetic "Gotcha" when hundreds of conscripts went to a watery grave in the Belgrano that paper's not even good enough to wipe my arse with. Tossers like Piers Morgan made no money off of me with their cheap and inflamatory editing. The only thing these rags were fit for was a pair of tits on page 3!

The arrival of the internet has been a god send to intelligent news reporting - we can now choose to read worthy news. In fairness the quality Press have given the "educated" reader a more balanced view but it's the tabloid's that fan the flames of mindless public opinion.

You can have more freedom of speech than ever with your very own blog where you can bore the arse off your readers to your hearts content just like I am doing here!

Politicians have always been bullshitters - there's plenty of scandal in the past to match anything of today! A Labour Minister faked his death in the 1970s as just one example - more is reported now by the media which is a good thing! These bastards don't get away with half as much as they used to. People vote less now because we're more informed of the bullshit.

Re Health -back in the 1960s and 1970s Dentists were "drill happy" with kid's teeth to earn a high standard of living. Just check out the stack of amalgam in your mouth! I've noticed a total difference in the way Dentistry is tackled now. Oh and on general health people are living much much longer and have a better quality of health...

Other professions like Doctors and Solicitors were unduly respected in the past and thankfully are now questioned... We don't have enough protection yet!! These professions still don't have independent regulators... wonder why.. of course many go into the house of commons...

Mortgages...gone is the pompous Bank Manager arse who might give you a loan if you've had a savings account for 10 years. Yes credit is more available than ever - if people can't treat credit in an adult fashion thats their look out but we're lucky to live in an era where you have the freedom to load yourself up to your eyeballs with debt if you want to.

Yes not everything's better in recent years...housing is a serious problem for first time buyers but I believe thats largely down to bad taxation policy.

Travel...we have the freedom to get around the world more than ever..... the general public's never had it so good...

Terrorism has been made more of an issue by the likes of inflamatory decision making by a self interested Prime Minister that we're finally free of.

The environment - sure there's serious issues there always has been but the good news is that we've recognised it now and are starting to do something about it! My old man when he was on the beat used to cough up black stuff from the smog in Glasgow back in the 50s and 60s such was the pollution. The UK's major cities were filthy with pollution back then - Glasgow's tenements were black with it in the 70s. They were cleaned up in the 80s and are still clean 20 years later.

Communications...the mobile phone what a major breakthrough... what a huge difference that makes! In no time at all you can call for assistance....

Political correctness... a pain in the arse ...well overdone but symptomatic of the greater freedoms we have that so much time can be devoted to this.

Smoking - thank christ we can breath in public places at last, our best clobber doesn't have to stink of putrid smoke next morning never mind the cigarette burns! - Smokers have been selfish buggers!

I could go on to disprove the doom and gloom of these terrible times but I can't be arsed

"What do you think? Are you happy with the potential future of the world? What do you think that'll be? Or (gasp) could there be a long term machievellian schem of plotting to get us to succumb to some kind of global police state? (worse case scenario there, of course!)"

The potential future of the world is safe as long as we make governments accountable to the people they represent. The people are not apathetic in my opinion, push them hard enough and they will react. The Human race is fundamentally good and common sense will prevail. Sleep easy!

[Lissa]

I suppose the other difference between the Commonwealth and the revolutions in America and France in particular is that ours happened slightly too early, in that the concepts of individual freedom and dignity which underpin the Declaration of Independence and the French Revolution hadn't really been formulated, or at least only in very limited circles.

We had Magna Carta in 1215 and created constitutional monarchy around 1660. Then we had an empire which changed the world and lead the fight against the most evil regime in human history. But at some point after that it was decided that we should be ashamed of everything Britain ever did. How can there ever be any true achievement when national success is buried beneath an engrained guilt over things that happened hundreds of years ago and individual achievement is savaged by a media which knows its envious readers want to see anyone more successful than they are brought down into the gutter.

Being Australian means something, being American means something, being French means something. We dismiss it as arrogance but only because we're bitter, directionless and envious of living in a country where the flag is a symbol of hope and everyone has pride in their nationality. The only people who say "British" with any degree of satisfaction are the ones that don't want to be mistaken for Europeans.

[Jon Masters]

Unfortunately the phrase 'civil liberties' has been given a new meaning as 'something I want to do', in the same way that 'human rights' now means 'I'm more important than anyone else'

Since the root of civil is related to how we work together as a society, bleating about a democratically elected government introducing a law for the benefit of everyone in society, which is probably supported by the majority of the public, is pathetic if your sole argument is an infringement of your civil liberties. Anyone claiming Britain is becomming a police state should consider emigrating to Zimbabwe, or Saudi, or the Far East - then try bleating there.

(and very but at school we got into a conversation about why it always has to be a police state - why couldn't it be a teacher state? Imagine living in a world where it was compulsory to have your clothing checked, having to keep a whiteboard in the corner of every living room, and where gangs of teachers could force their way into your homes at any time of the day or night, and forcibly educate you. What a wonderful world it could be )

[Carol Baynes]

Totally. I don't buy into the doom and gloom of this thread Carol - it's "daft paranoia!"

I think a lot of people misunderstand where I'm coming from with this. I'm a very positive person, but I feel there are possible changes afoot which need to be challenged, not apathetically accepted. But because of the way society has become, that could happen.

[Carol Baynes]

The people are not apathetic in my opinion, push them hard enough and they will react. The Human race is fundamentally good and common sense will prevail. Sleep easy!

The people are too bothered about things that do not really matter in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion. But I agree we are fundamentally 'good'.

[Ralph]

Perhaps I went off at a tangent with my post

Hmmm I'll need to have a think over civil liberties

[Carol Baynes]

Perhaps I went off at a tangent with my post

Hmmm I'll need to have a think over civil liberties

You'll do as you're told, young man!

[SiHart]

I wasa thinking about the apathetic voting stats the other day. Our local authority was really pleased with the 27% turn out for the local elections, except when trying to answer a query from a local resident who wnated to know why that's so good when 73% of residents haven't voted at all. Why is there so much apathy? Surely the only way to register a change is to vote out the people who aren't doing what you like and try someone else?

I wa shaving this argument at work the other day, where someone was whinging about our fortnightly bin collections. I asked her if she voted against the current Conservative candidates to try and get this changed, and she said she didn't bother because her vote wouldn't change anything. That seems to sum up the countrywide viewpoint I think- no-one thinks they can change things... if we all thought that, then only the politicians would vote and we'd all be in trouble then!

I think the right to vote is one of the most important things we've got. The parties might not be the best in the world, but if we don't exercise our right to choose who's in power, then you don't have the right to moan about things!

What we really need to do, more than anything is instill the desire to vote in people. It is after all a civil liberty and a great one at that.

Si xx

[Jason Thompson]

Unfortunately the phrase 'civil liberties' has been given a new meaning as 'something I want to do', in the same way that 'human rights' now means 'I'm more important than anyone else'

Couldn't agree more, Jon. The problem with 'civil liberties' is that invariably one person's 'civil liberties' infringe on another's. There have to be limits, or else anarchy prevails. A smoker's right to inhale toxic fumes in a public enclosed space infringes my right not to inhale such noxious chemicals. My neighbour's right to operate stereo equipment in his house can infringe my right to enjoy some peace and quiet in my own home. If I chose to do it, my right to perform alterations to my own home at 2am infringes his right to a good night's sleep. Everyone bleats about their 'rights' but those same people don't want to exercise them responsibly. Smoking, being a topical issue, is the best example right now. If you who smoke want to put toxic chemicals in your body then fine, but do it in a way that doesn't also put toxic chemicals into the bodies of anyone standing around you who did not choose to poison themselves.

And the fact that criminals such a murderers and paedophiles can even have any kind of appeal based on their 'human rights' sickens me.

[Paul Monk]

Exactly Jason. The big problem this country has as I see it is a lack of responsibility for ones own actions. It's alway someone else's problem.

And I didn't vote in the Local Elections this year because despite my best efforts I couldn't find out any information about any of the canditates. I got one leaflet through my door from the conservative candidate (and he was standing in the next ward) and thats it. No-one came canvassing at my door. No one sent any leaflets out. I checked the various party websites, they had no information. It looked like the parties couldn't be bothered really.
I wasn't going to vote for something random because that's worse than not voting in my opinion.

[The Secretive Bus]

I wasa thinking about the apathetic voting stats the other day. Our local authority was really pleased with the 27% turn out for the local elections, except when trying to answer a query from a local resident who wnated to know why that's so good when 73% of residents haven't voted at all. Why is there so much apathy? Surely the only way to register a change is to vote out the people who aren't doing what you like and try someone else?

I wa shaving this argument at work the other day, where someone was whinging about our fortnightly bin collections. I asked her if she voted against the current Conservative candidates to try and get this changed, and she said she didn't bother because her vote wouldn't change anything. That seems to sum up the countrywide viewpoint I think- no-one thinks they can change things... if we all thought that, then only the politicians would vote and we'd all be in trouble then!

I think the right to vote is one of the most important things we've got. The parties might not be the best in the world, but if we don't exercise our right to choose who's in power, then you don't have the right to moan about things!

What we really need to do, more than anything is instill the desire to vote in people. It is after all a civil liberty and a great one at that.

Si xx

The reason why I still haven't bothered to vote - and having asked my friends and friends of friends, this is an opinion I expect is shared by many - is that I can't currently see any differences between any political parties. None of them seem to have distinguishing features anymore, and all use similar tactics to get into power (empty rhetoric, mainly). I don't feel as if any of the political parties will make things better, which causes apathy and general depression. I voted Labour to keep the SNP out whilst in Edinburgh, but not because I liked Labour but because it was the only party that could stand up to a party I definitely didn't like.

Yes, the only way to change things is to try a different party out but loads of people are still convinced that the Conservative Party is boring and totalitarian and that the Liberal Party are ineffective and a bit useless. They don't like Labour but can't see that anything else is a better alternative.

[Wayne]

They don't like Labour but can't see that anything else is a better alternative.

That's the crux of it for me.

[Carol Baynes]

Interesting viewpoints...

http://smintair.com/THOUGHTS/thoughts.html

I personally have always thought the second hand smoke argument to be exagerrated. I'm not saying it isn't a problem, but I do believe smoking can be a tool for another agenda. Especially considering the money involved.

[Captain Tancredi]

I was thinking about this the other day after reading the chapter in Roy Hattersley's book 'The Edwardians' about the women's suffrage movement. Faced with the intransigence of the governments of the day and the uncompromising personalities of the Pankhurst family, the suffragettes (although for reasons I won't go into, that was initially a term of abuse) resorted to petty violence and vandalism, breaking shop windows and assaulting policemen. That didn't win them the vote- what did was the First World War, which showed that a woman could do many jobs as well as a man and deserved an equal say in the running of the country.

On the one hand I think our politicians generally have become too polished, too professional and too good at saying what they think we want to hear. On the other, our society has achieved more or less complete equality for all adult citizens and a reasonable standard of living and opportunity for those who want it, so the causes simply aren't there to fight for in the way that they used to be.