Rate And Discuss 3.13: Last Of The Time Lords

[stephenhannan]

Just where is RTD going with this Doctor. You could not imagine any previous Doctor being written as a near to God character. This series is starting to effect my belief badly.

[Si Hunt]

Please be Zoe Lucker picking up the ring!

If everyone has that thought at the same time, do you think it would come true?

Si.

[Trudi G]

Oh, and my sisters been texting me - she thought it was bloody brilliant too, and can't wait for the Christmas special.

[The Secretive Bus]

And before I'm jumped on for supposedly being a bloke who doesn't want Doctor Who to be emotional and just wants hard sci-fi or whatever, my criticisms with this episode were mostly to do with the fact that I couldn't believe in it and invest anything in it. I adored "Father's Day" with a passion (taking one of the most obviously emotional ones) because it connected with me and I enjoyed it all. But "Last of the Time Lords" distanced me at every turn, with bizarre things like a CGI goblin and more demi-god nonsense and "emotional" stuff that just lacked any resonance with me.

[Dave Tudor]

My god! He's dead! She's gone! Oh no! Oh wow! What a finale!

I wish it was Christmas next week.

I'll post my full review one day.

I think OG has crashed!!!



Dave - hoped that Sally might re-appear at the end.

[Si Hunt]

No-one minded when Ky from the Mutants turned God-like and floated accross the room!

What I liked about this episode was that, thank God, it deviated from last years contrary to the "promise" of last weeks. Although I don't approve of "rolling back time" usually the device of going forward a year was great and different and we groaned when the 'Time Lord Killing' doohickey came out... so just as well it was all a trick.

I'm really fascinating by people ageing hundreds of years, so I loved the stuff with the really old Doctor and Jack being Boe - explains how we knew the Doctor wasn't alone! Explains a lot really!

C'mon people, this was much more exciting and different to last weeks! Was I the only one who got with the flow and thought "Doctor!" as well!

Si.

[stephenhannan]

I think I've got it!! RTD is going the end of next season and is probably getting egotistical enough to want to leave nothing of value or mystery for the show to continue after his departure

[Matthew T]

Just downloaded that Scissor Sisters track. Good stuff!

You can tell OG is down with some of the posts in this thread.

[Lissa]

BBC: What are the plans for the season finale?

RTD: I'm going to rip off two of the worst endings in Doctor Who history...

BBC: Which ones? Tenth Planet will want to know who to book for signings.

RTD: The Mutants and the TV Movie.

BBC: And?

RTD: I'm going to turn the Doctor into Dobby the house elf.

BBC: Will there be lots of twists and turns?

RTD: Ooh yes.

BBC: Will they make any sense?

RTD: Are you new?

[The Secretive Bus]

Was I the only one who got with the flow and thought "Doctor!" as well!

I found all that a bit odd, really. The faith in the Doctor, Godlike powers and "I forgive you," all had very major religious overtones, which seem out of place in Doctor Who. In particular, the way that the humans save themselves by their faith in the Doctor seems to go against the general agenda of the series of people helping themselves and looking into themselves to find qualities they may not have realised they had. The humans take action, yes, but it's only something to nudge their saviour into being in a position to act on their behalf and ultimately do everything for them. It didn't sit right with me.

[The Secretive Bus]

You can tell OG is down with some of the posts in this thread.

People who don't like the episode have every right to speak just as much as those that loved it and those that thought it was just OK. There's no need to belittle them for it or look down on them. Surely Planet Skaro is above that?

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Was there ACTUALLY a Scissors Sisters track in there? And to think I was only joking about that a few days ago in my 21st century writers guide thingy. Sigh...

[Matthew T]

People who don't like the episode have every right to speak just as much as those that loved it and those that thought it was just OK. There's no need to belittle them for it or look down on them. Surely Planet Skaro is above that?

I was talking more about "RTD MUST DIE BEFORE HE RAPES THE SHOW ANYMORE" rather than anyone who expresses a dislike for the episode. Would've thought that was obvious!

[The Secretive Bus]

Was there ACTUALLY a Scissors Sisters track in there? And to think I was only joking about that a few days ago in my 21st century writers guide thingy. Sigh...

To be honest I don't really see anything wrong in using contemporary music in Doctor Who. You may question the context in which it's used but there's no real need to dismiss the use of the music itself. I thought the Master rushing about and miming to it was quite funny, m'self, though I can understand it not being everybody's cup of tea!

Now, if the Master had been listening to something like "Smack My Bitch Up" then there'd be cause to raise an eyebrow...

[The Secretive Bus]

I was talking more about "RTD MUST DIE BEFORE HE RAPES THE SHOW ANYMORE" rather than anyone who expresses a dislike for the episode. Would've thought that was obvious!

Ah, well, apologies in that case.

[Paul Clement]

That was a real pile of poo. I'd hoped that after a weaker penultimate episode this series finale would go out with a bang, it was more of a damp squip of a whimper. 4/10 and a point of that goes to the funny Titanic ending.

[Jim]

Be gone with this negativity! I thought it was FAR better than last week - real edge of seat stuff and I thought it did make sense as it goes! I liked the linking to Utopia, Martha's message, Jack as Boe and the whole feeling of real impending doom that the episode brought. Simms (spot on) and Tennant (superb) were fab -the death scene one of the best since the show came back. As has been said, the fact we still feel empathy towards the master at the end is a real testament to the writing.

Lots to enjoy, I desperately want Freema back - but we are left wanting more which is no bad thing. Bring her back! And DT was just great wasn't he.

9/10!

[WhiteCrow]

What utter tripe I started singing " Look what they done to me Doctor Ma"

Sorry mate but Mrs Crow outdid you. As the Doctor set fire to the Masters body she sang "Doctor Doctor - can't you see I'm burning burning ..."

[The Secretive Bus]

As has been said, the fact we still feel empathy towards the master at the end is a real testament to the writing.

Do we? I'd say we have more empathy with the Doctor and the position he's in - the Master willing himself to die so that the Doctor is definitely alone is one of the most spiteful and evil things he's ever done.

[WhiteCrow]

RTD: I'm going to turn the Doctor into Dobby the house elf.

Yes - what was he thinking? And a good deal of the budget would have gone on that too. About a 7/10 from me, not bad, but not great either, I think the other two part stories this year have been stronger.

I've on the whole enjoyed this series, but I thought season 2 was better, although season 2 did contain a few more clunkers. Consistently a better series, but not quite reaching the greatness of the better episodes of season 2.

[Andrew Curnow]

I can't help but think of course of that picture from Rose where we saw the 9th Doctor linked to the Titanic, but I'd probably be being a bit too optimistic in hoping that we're going to get a 2 Doctors episode, but well, you never know

That's just what I thought Alex - I bet OG already has half a dozen threads on the subject!!!

Anyway, all I can say of 2007's Who is that I appear to be 'in the zone' because I just really, thoroughly enjoyed it. Bits were daft, bits were scary, some bits were actually very unsettling (I almost found myself screaming at the TV for the Master to stop aging the Doctor), some bits were funny, some bits were very moving, I liked the music, I liked the acting, I liked the long amount of 'post-climax' time with the various goodbyes & loose ends, and I even liked the kick-off for Christmas. Speaking personally, I'd say it's been a cracking season finale, and I loved it. And the notion of the Doctor being 'rejuvenated' by the combined power of human positive thought (but given a bit of scientific rationale in that it feeds through the Master's Archangel network - neatly hoisting him by his own petard) was actually rather heart-warming and affirming. And Tennant was tremendous in the scene of the Master dying - you could really feel and empathise with his rage when he screeches at him to regenerate. Heartbreaking.

Fan-bloody-tastic!!!

[Kinggodzillak]

It lost me at 'ONE YEAR LATER'. Straight after the opening titles, Russell flat-out confirms that the ending'll be yet another huge copout. He's not going to jump so far ahead and make such massive changes, so that automatically gives it one star from me, because if it's so obviously all going to be reset, why the hell should I bother watching? What's there to invest in?

[Si Hunt]

I found all that a bit odd, really. The faith in the Doctor, Godlike powers and "I forgive you," all had very major religious overtones, which seem out of place in Doctor Who.

See, I didn't interprete the Doctors statement of forgiveness as a religious parallel, because it's true to the personal relationship the Doctor has ALWAYS had with the Master. It reminded me of "The Time Monster" when the Doctor is conned into pleading for the Master's life, basically because he forgives him. Here, it's given an extra twist in that the Master resents the Doctors compassion so much that he'd (apparently!) rather die than accept it. But I saw all that as a continuation of their relationship, and nothing to do with any religious symbolism.

In particular, the way that the humans save themselves by their faith in the Doctor seems to go against the general agenda of the series of people helping themselves and looking into themselves to find qualities they may not have realised they had.

I must have missed the series having that specific agenda! In fact, the human race have shown themselves to be useless and in dire need of (and happy to accept) being saved by the Doctor on many previous occasions...

Here's a thing. My Dad just suggested it was the Masters wife who has picked up the ring - they could have planned it all along in order to get him out of it. It would explain why she suddenly shoots him - he's planned to put himself into the ring (as per the fobwatch) and be collected later...

Si.

[Jim]

"Do we? I'd say we have more empathy with the Doctor and the position he's in - the Master willing himself to die so that the Doctor is definitely alone is one of the most spiteful and evil things he's ever done."

Of course you feel for the doctor too, but I was talking about the scenes with the master as a boy thrust into looking into the vortex - even better that as a viewer there is some perspective to be found on all sides.

[Si Hunt]

because if it's so obviously all going to be reset, why the hell should I bother watching

To find out what happened? That's the big intrigue with stories that suddenly take you forward into the future isn't it?

I've just realised why I don't mind the paradox. It was because it was explained that history was WRONG anyway. The "Toclafane" shouldn't exist in our world because they are its own future; they only do so with the Paradox Machine holding things in place. So rather than simply "undoing" everything, events are restored to how they should be by destroying the machine. Somehow that seems to me more satisfying than if they'd just hopped back into the TARDIS and gone back in time. Plus it was kind of nice how the Doctor, Martha and Jack all kept their memory of events, but everyone else forgot, leading to the nice scene where Martha forgave Bodybag from Bad Girls and she didn't know why.

Si.