Rate And Discuss 3.13: Last Of The Time Lords

[Si Hunt]

The premise that the Toclafane were the last of the humans sent to Utopia was shoehorned in in 2 minutes through flashbacks of Utopia and discarded
The Doctor ressurected and made "super powerful" by a planet of humans chanting "Doctor" ws nauseating and pathetic. Oh, but it was a very handy and lazy plot device.

Surely the whole thing was about the Toclafane? You can't pick on the moment it was revealed what they were and then say it was "shoehorned in". There was a whole episode setting this up!

Likewise, the bulk of tonight's episode concerned Martha spending a year arranging for the solution to the Doctors problem. So I don't see how it can be "handy and lazy". That's what the story was. I can accept that people might not have liked the "God like" nature of the resolution (though it was well explained scientifically as counter-acting the Masters perception field) but the plot was quite elaborate and clever (including the whole bluff with the hidden weapon) so hardly "lazy".

Si.

[The Secretive Bus]

The point about the reset switch going back to just after the President Elect was killed is a good one, particularly as he was killed by a Toclafane and so that event shouldn't have happened either. Why didn't they reset to just before the assassination? I know it's a tiny detail but when you didn't much care for the rest of it just becomes another irritation...

The Toclafane being the Utopia humans was quite a good twist, though. I was surprised they didn't subsequently make more of it, really!

[Si Hunt]

The effects work with the ancient Doctor and the Future Human heads was excellent I thought. Much better than last weeks, which offered only a rather crap exploding house. Maybe all the money was saved up for the last episode?

Incidentally, it was amazing that the power of the humans chanting was so strong it even managed to restore the Doctors clothes.

Si.

[Martin Penny]

I can accept that people might not have liked the "God like" nature of the resolution (though it was well explained scientifically as counter-acting the Masters perception field).

Si.

I wouldn't say it was 'well explained' Si. I thought it was a good way of overpowering the perception field and the Masters psychic hold over the people, but why did the Doctor re-age and become a God like figure because of it?

[Pip Madeley]

Not long got back home, I've been reading through all the posts... I find myself agreeing with a variety of points. It was all really quite odd, it was Doctor Who, but not like we really know it. The first scene was quite gobsmacking. I felt so sad, seeing the Doctor reduced to a dog, looking so old, frail and depressed, being pushed round by the Master, crashing his wheelchair into the wall... I didn't mind the "one year later" thing, but it didn't seem like much had changed, what with the Doctor/Master in the same clothes.

I liked the Axon and Sea Devils references, but I didn't think they were particularly deserving, I would've thought Logopolis would've been more memorable, but that's just a niggle. The idea of the Doctor being so old that he regresses is quite something, totally blew me away, seeing him change like that. But we forget he is an alien.

I didn't buy the bit where the Doctor turned God-like just by the power of people thinking/saying his name. And I didn't like the Jesus-like "I forgive you" either, it just felt so unsuitable. But seeing the Doctor cradling the Master in his arms was quite moving, as was Martha's goodbye - as I said earlier, I shed a tear when Martha told the Doctor she was leaving. Freema's really proved her worth over the course of this series, I really don't want to stay goodbye to her, so I'm glad that she'll return at some point. Same goes for Captain Jack, my jaw hit the floor with the "Boe" revelation... as for the cliffhanger, wow! Though I did think "no, not again" with the 'What?!' business, very uninspired.

I do think that was Mrs Saxon who picked up the Doctor's ring, and I can't imagine the Master is totally gone. Incidentally, I thought the girl who played Lucy Saxon was superb, it was really quite deep, seeing the red marks on her face, suggesting the Master had been beating her about. When he's being evil in a fantastical way it doesn't really bother you, but to think he's been slapping a woman is quite disturbing. Perhaps Lucy Saxon will turn into a strong female villain for future series, perhaps with Time Lord powers? I'm thinking a sort of Rani, yes.

This is one episode that has divided the fans like no other, reading Roobarbs for instance, it seems to be the Marmite of the New Series, they either love it or hate it.

[Captain Tancredi]

Incidentally it only occurred to me before that the Master has worn a ring as early as 'The Mind of Evil', which raises a few interesting possibilities.

To expand on what I was saying earlier (and Pip's post from earlier on), I do think the way the Master treats Lucy and the Joneses is a particularly dark and bleak place for a Russell T Davies script to go- it reminds me slightly of the Buffy episode 'The Wish', where alternate universe versions of all the regulars die and the Master (!) wins. A very subtle performance from Alexandra Moen, then- in the course of the two episodes, Lucy starts out as a vacuous trophy wife, but you could read into her every gesture that this is a woman who spends her every waking moment not knowing whether she's going to be kissed passionately or slapped across the face and knows she can't do anything about it. Similarly with the ritual humiliation of Francine in particular- Adjoa Andoh really putting across that this is a woman who is degraded every day of her life but sustained by her belief in Martha and her hope that one day they'll be able to kill the Master.

[Logo Polish]

There was a really enjoyable episode of Doctor Who on yesterday, entertaining, colourful, quite funny at times...not perfect, but good fun. But that's enough about The Infinite Quest.

I wasn't all that keen on this one. Reasonable stab at showing a subjugated Earth, and John Simm seemed a bit more impressive than last week...I found the whole business with the Doctor either ridiculous or horrible...I can't decide which...and the get-out implausible in the extreme. A lot of it felt very contrived. Paradox Machine stuff was pretty obvious too.

As to whether Russell was entitled to kill off the Master or not, I don't think it would have made any difference even if he hadn't left that little hint in. After all, the character's already been killed off once and for all at least twice before, so I doubt if it would have stopped anyone bringing him back in future if they'd wanted to.

The scenes of the Master dying in the Doctor's arms, and Martha's farewell, along with the teaser for the Christmas special, were the highlights. Otherwise, I didn't like it much really.

[Andrew Curnow]

I'm sorry to single out Darren's post, but if ever there seemed to me a post that was actively looking for things to complain about, that seemed to be it. I'm all for debate and discussion, and people really hating episodes and saying why; but:

The notion that the Doctor could be traumatised to that degree without regenerating or dying outright is ludicrous.

Well he certainly wouldn't regenerate, since the Master said he'd just used his device to "suspend [the Doctor's] ability to regenerate" - as for dying outright, well we've nothing whatsoever to compare to have we, and narratively speaking it would have been a bit stupid to kill the Doctor off, so I can't see a valid criticism there.

The Doctor ressurected and made "super powerful" by a planet of humans chanting "Doctor" ws nauseating and pathetic. Oh, but it was a very handy and lazy plot device.

See, I'm quite surprised at that, because the point was made quite clearly that the surge of thought was being routed through the Master's own satellite network, which had previously been used to suppress humanity. So in that sense it's the classic resolution of turning the enemy's own power against them. A "handy and lazy plot device" would be Martha whipping out a can of "Evil Timelord Repellant" from her batbelt (or the time control unit from the TARDIS...). In what possible way is it a "lazy" plot device, I just don't get it?

The Paradox Machine. Last week the Doctor told Jack to touch nothing, but now, what the hell, they have to finish the episode so just shoot it

No, last week the Doctor said he couldn't disconnect or destroy it until he knew what it was doing

Finally, the Titannic has crashed literally into the TARDIS, eh? The TARDIS that nothing can penetrate, and that includes The Hordes of Ghengis Khan? Hhhmmmm.

Because obviously from a 30 second sequence at the end of last night's episode you can tell that it's definitely the Titanic as we know it, crashing into the TARDIS in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? For goodness sakes, without knowing what the story is actually about, and where it's set, and what is going on, how can you possibly moan about that. If when Christmas comes, it turns out that yes, the ship has somehow managed to physically crash through into the TARDIS from the real world outside, then I'll also agree that it's a real change in things; but we don't know diddly-squat about it yet, do we.

[WhiteCrow]

I have to say most episode 13s so far have been a bit of a disappointment. After 1-2 episodes of build up, the resolution has just come out of nowhere and usually a bit too conveniently "look in the time vortex", "open the void", "everyone say the word Doctor".

And surely if the satellite system worked like that - that everything people believed became true, then surely Elvis should have returned with a load of kick ass aliens and saved the day?

[I love that bit in Independance Day when that woman goes "Oh my god I hope they brought back Elvis!"]

[Rob McCow]

Darren is clearly just upset because all his predictions were wrong!

Never mind eh, this clearly wasn't going to be to every fan's taste. Most bonkers episode ever!

For my part, it was jammed full of iconic, brilliant moments.

Did anyone else think that the ending with the Master's Ring was a direct lift from the ending of Flash Gordon?

RTD is a genius he has turned the show into something proper rather than the amateur-hour amusement it was for 26 years.

The ending with Martha leaving, then not leaving, then leaving again left me exapserated, but in a good way! I STILL have no idea if she's left the show!

I don't mind if people don't like this episode, it was rather soppy and bonkers. But it was still a thoroughly entertaining 50 minutes on a Saturday night. Even Si's family were chatting about it afterwards and they have traditionally hated Doctor Who!

[Wayne]

RTD is a genius he has turned the show into something proper rather than the amateur-hour amusement it was for 26 years.

[Si Hunt]

There was a really enjoyable episode of Doctor Who on yesterday, entertaining, colourful, quite funny at times...not perfect, but good fun. But that's enough about The Infinite Quest.

Assuming there's an iota of seriousness in the above, it's perhaps an example of new vs the old. "The Infinite Quest" was, in my IMO, lightweight, frothy, unchallenging, inconsequential (little more than 'collecting a key each week and then discovering it was all for nothing in the final part and going home'), unmoving, jeuvenile and didn't make me laugh in a witty way once. We watched it and thought it was okay, but it didn't challenge us at all. In fact, in truth it was a bit boring and I'd be happy never to see it again.

"Last of the Time Lords" by comparison has, at the very least, got everyone talking and debating, challenged the very nature of the show and was exciting all the way through. I'd say if you preferred "Quest" to "Last of the Time Lords" it says more about your you than it does about the show... I certainly think if New Who had been like "Quest" when it came back, we certainly wouldn't be discussing the latest episode now, three years later.

Si.

[WhiteCrow]

I don't mind if people don't like this episode, it was rather soppy and bonkers. But it was still a thoroughly entertaining 50 minutes on a Saturday night. Even Si's family were chatting about it afterwards and they have traditionally hated Doctor Who!

So you didn't miss out on it then? I bet Si was pleased about that.

Was it me or apart from the revelation Jack was the Face of Boe, was there no real need for him to be here? Perhaps I'm being overly critical - but he seemed to do less over these episodes than his tennure in the first series.

Least we know he's not gonna get killed off in Torchwood, but might end up a Big Giant Head alien.

[SiHart]

I loved it! I loved the way it had such a different atmosphere to the other end of series episodes. I loved the way Martha had a chance to shine and take centre stage and save the world. I loved the fact that it tied in with Utopia, juts like I always believed it would do in the end. I loved the Jones family being reunited and Francine about to go for it and shoot the Master. I loved the way that The Doctor just bided his time until the right moment, despite all the humiliations the Master piled on him (though I'm not sure about the CGI mini-old Doctor!) and I loved the Doctor forgiving him... hasn't he always?
And I loved Martha's departure- just right considering all the things she's been through with the Doctor.

I don't care if lots of didn't like! I did, and that's all that matters!

Si xx

[Jonno]

Finally, the Titannic has crashed literally into the TARDIS, eh? The TARDIS that nothing can penetrate, and that includes The Hordes of Ghengis Khan? Hhhmmmm.

That'll also be the TARDIS that the Master cannibalised and turned into a Paradox Machine - who knows what effects that may have caused? You just have to use a little imagination at times...

[Si Hunt]

I loved the fact that it tied in with Utopia, juts like I always believed it would do in the end.

I have to make an admission here.... it WAS all explained in the end. I was wrong!!

Si.

[SiHart]

That'll also be the TARDIS that the Master cannibalised and turned into a Paradox Machine - who knows what effects that may have caused? You just have to use a little imagination at times...

Or perhaps wait until you've seen the episode on Christmas day!

I have to make an admission here.... it WAS all explained in the end. I was wrong!!

A little paitence goes a long way!

Si xx

[Jon Masters]

Did anyone else think that the ending with the Master's Ring was a direct lift from the ending of Flash Gordon?

Yes, just as I thought the Master continuously blasting the Doctor with his evil powers, the Doctor cradling his dying former enemy in his arms and the funeral pyre were the influence of RTD watching Return of the Jedi late into the night

Glad you liked it though Si, given your reaction to Blink

[WhiteCrow]

Hmmm - on the tying up with Utopia issue, I really hold with my original analysis of that episode, that there were a lot of good ideas not properly explored. In a way it's probably a good thing a show has more ideas than it can really explore. The main thing of that episode was humans living in hope of a Utopia.

Filling in the gaps I guess they never arrived, and so there was a death of hope, so like some strange cross between cybermen and dalek, they did what they could to survive. Possibly this lack of hope, and the lengths they've had to do to have driven them mad. Hence why they have so much disdain for human life, and why their desire is to wage war and destroy. They seem to have a nihilst worldview, having seen a universe of void, they wish to destroy our universe. Not even Daleks are so doomed in their world view (they want a Universe of only Daleks, not to destroy everything).

Anyway as aliens they had the potential to be fascinating race, although a bit too much of a repeat of daleks/cybermen. However annoyingly all the best bits of their development were crammed into a small segment, and lots missed out.

[Paul Clement]

"Last of the Time Lords" by comparison has, at the very least, got everyone talking and debating, challenged the very nature of the show and was exciting all the way through

I don't think it was, and that's one of my biggest complaints about the story. It didn't excite me at all. It was rather pedestrian and on the whole a rather dull and ultimnately unrewarding episode.

I think John Simm was the right actor for the role as there were glimpses that he could have been great in the role. It's the writing of the character that was the big letdown, and for that RTD has to shoulder the blame. The whole thing Martha was sent off to do was a load of old rubbish too. How did she know what time everyone was meant to start thinking about the Doctor. The whole thing was a rehash of RTD's old ideas, but this time they felt very tired and stale.

[Si Hunt]

Surely it's good to have SOME ideas left over though. They've still got a series to make next year!

Si.

[Si Hunt]

How did she know what time everyone was meant to start thinking about the Doctor.

Presumably the Master had set his invasion plans to launch at a specific time (wasn't there a countdown to 3pm or something) so she told them this exact time.

Si.

[Darren]

I'm sorry to single out Darren's post, but if ever there seemed to me a post that was actively looking for things to complain about, that seemed to be it.

Why? I picked on elements of the episode I had problems with. I haven't criticised people for praising it. If I had given a sentance review like "It was a load of old shite", which it was, fine, but I wrote detailed reasons.

Well he certainly wouldn't regenerate, since the Master said he'd just used his device to "suspend [the Doctor's] ability to regenerate" - as for dying outright, well we've nothing whatsoever to compare to have we, and narratively speaking it would have been a bit stupid to kill the Doctor off, so I can't see a valid criticism there.

Well, he hadn't suspended his ability last week when he initially aged him. Obviously I wasn't infering he should die.

See, I'm quite surprised at that, because the point was made quite clearly that the surge of thought was being routed through the Master's own satellite network, which had previously been used to suppress humanity. So in that sense it's the classic resolution of turning the enemy's own power against them. A "handy and lazy plot device" would be Martha whipping out a can of "Evil Timelord Repellant" from her batbelt (or the time control unit from the TARDIS...). In what possible way is it a "lazy" plot device, I just don't get it?

The Master aged the Doctor using his Laser Screwdriver, which was derived from the Lazarus technology, not the Archangel Network.
Chanting his name freed the population from suppression- yes, fine.
Chanting his name reversed the Lazarus effect- no, can't see it.

No, last week the Doctor said he couldn't disconnect or destroy it until he knew what it was doing

Fair enough.

Because obviously from a 30 second sequence at the end of last night's episode you can tell that it's definitely the Titanic as we know it, crashing into the TARDIS in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? For goodness sakes, without knowing what the story is actually about, and where it's set, and what is going on, how can you possibly moan about that. If when Christmas comes, it turns out that yes, the ship has somehow managed to physically crash through into the TARDIS from the real world outside, then I'll also agree that it's a real change in things; but we don't know diddly-squat about it yet, do we.

Again fair enough, lets wait and see.

[Logo Polish]

Assuming there's an iota of seriousness in the above,

Which is rather a large assumption.

it's perhaps an example of new vs the old. "The Infinite Quest" was, in my IMO, lightweight, frothy, unchallenging, inconsequential (little more than 'collecting a key each week and then discovering it was all for nothing in the final part and going home'), unmoving, jeuvenile and didn't make me laugh in a witty way once. We watched it and thought it was okay, but it didn't challenge us at all. In fact, in truth it was a bit boring and I'd be happy never to see it again.

"Last of the Time Lords" by comparison has, at the very least, got everyone talking and debating, challenged the very nature of the show and was exciting all the way through. I'd say if you preferred "Quest" to "Last of the Time Lords" it says more about your you than it does about the show... I certainly think if New Who had been like "Quest" when it came back, we certainly wouldn't be discussing the latest episode now, three years later.

Si.

I don't regard "Quest" as particularly challenging television, if that's what you mean, and, except in the superficial sense of resembling the likes of Keys of Marinus or the Key to Time season structurally, nor do I think it's much like old or new Dr Who, and, no, it's not something I feel a particular craving to see again.

It did, however, strike me that the distinction between what can seem frothy throwaway nonsense and exciting, engaging stuff to different people can be very arbitrary. You yourself are quite happy to express your delight when you find an episode which you believe to be, say, witty, exciting, world-changing, everything you think Dr Who should be, tra-la-la, shall we dance etc...Which is fine. But what strikes someone in that way could easily come across as disposable and uninteresting to someone else...

If push comes to shove, I would say that Quest irritated me less than Last, so in that sense it wasn't as annoying, which doesn't mean I seriously regard it as a template for anything.

I've defended Father's Day, Warriors' Gate, Human Nature, Fear Her, Boom Town and Happiness Patrol, amongst others, whether here or elsewhere, before now, so AFAIC it's got nothing to do with preferring "old-fashioned" or "traditional" types of stories. Last night's, like a few others, simply didn't appeal to me much, to the point where a fluffy kid's cartoon in the morning annoyed me less. Just as a repeat of Fonz and the Happy Days Gang or The Brittass Empire would have irritated me less.

[Andrew Curnow]

Just a quick "sorry, Darren" because re-reading my post from earlier it did come across as rather hectoring and aggressive. Sorry about that.