Was Andrew Cartmel actually any good?

[SiHart]

One of the so-called saviours of the last fewe years of the show was Andrew Cartmel, who was appointed script editor for the final three years of the shows original run.

He gets quite a lot of credit for turning the show around. he reintroduced the mystery of the Doctor, he introduced new writers to the show, and he introduced us to the famous Cartmel Masterplan. But was he actually any good at his job?

Lets consider a couple of things here:

Firstly, the script editor's job (at that time) was to get scripts in shape to be made for TV. Frequently the scripts he worked on were too long, leading to a packed filming schedule, when there wasn't enough time to get the scripts in the can, and thus many of the stories became muddled when edited down to get them to the right length.

Secondly the script editors job is to help make sense of the scripts. Too often there are narrative problems with the McCoy stories, witnedd the writing out of half the cast in Battlefield when they've served their plot purposes, the muddled episode 1 of Curse of Fenric where the Doctor and Ace end up in every location possible just because the story dictates they need to find a clue to the plot there. Surely these things should have been ironed out before the stories were made...

Now I know slagging off the McCoy years is still fashionable, even all these years later, but i do think there were certain mistakes made that should have ironed out. Compared to the workloads of his predecessors, he had it quite easy getting 4 scripts a year to the screen. Maybe he just wasn't up the job?

Anyway, I've presented a few things to be going on with, what do you think?

Si xx

[MacNimon]

I'm really not a fan of the era. I can appreciate what he was trying to do, ie bring back the mystery surrounding the character of the Doctor; while the show certainly improved I still think it was pretty amateurish when compared to what came before. It probably wasn't all Cartmels fault though, any more than it was all JN-T's. It was a case of too little too late, and at the time the BBC just weren't going to put somebody really capable of doing the job into the position at that time. They were in the process of winding the series down, after all...so why go to too much effort trying to save it?!

[Zbigniev Hamson]

The last time I watched the stories in order, I can remember how much of a breath of fresh air season 24 was. Despite it appearing to be gaudy rubbish at the time, just the ideas of things like architects becoming mass-murderers to stop people polluting their 'art', aliens disguising themselves as humans JUST so they can go on holiday and soak up the sights in a bus etc are just so nice to see done, even done badly, after the rather repetitive guns/aliens/torture/escape/re-capture/blahblahblah of the latter Saward stuff.

From that point of view yes, he was any good.

But he really should have shaved that moustache off.

[Milky Tears]

Cartmel was an Anal Gimp Of The Highest Order...



With A Stupid/Pubey 'Tache!



This means he was doomed from the start.

[Paul Monk]

Cartmel wasn't actually a very experienced writer was he?
I have a great deal of respect for bringing in his concept for re-formating the show but as Si says his actual script editing just wasn't up to much. I remember watching the stories at the time and loving a lot of the concepts but hating the actual stories. This was especially true of season 26. I felt the ideas were great but the stories were badly edited and didn't make sense half the time. Many of them I only liked after reading the target adaptations. And thats Cartmel's fault. If he'd spent a little less time lusting after Sophie Aldred and being smug and more time on the scripts they could have been vastly better than the actual recordings we got. Actually thats not true, I just don't think Cartmel was experienced enough to do the job.
And he was far too obsessed by Cyber-punk which was massivley dated by the late 80's

[Pip Madeley]

If he'd spent a little less time lusting after Sophie Aldred

Elaborate?

[Wayne]

Elaborate?

Yes Paul. Make it up if you have to.

[Milky Tears]

He virtually spurts all over her during the DVD commentaries/docs (probably his Script Doctor book as well).

Must've admired her facial hair!

[Perry Vale]

Firstly, the script editor's job (at that time) was to get scripts in shape to be made for TV. Frequently the scripts he worked on were too long, leading to a packed filming schedule, when there wasn't enough time to get the scripts in the can, and thus many of the stories became muddled when edited down to get them to the right length.

Fair criticism perhaps, but this is something that can also be levelled at the new Series IMO, especially the single-parters.

RTD doesn't have a dodgy 'tache though.

[Pip Madeley]

RTD doesn't have a dodgy 'tache though.

Not on his face, anyway.

[SiHart]

His Script Doctor book does describe how pretty Sophie is, at every single possible oppotunity. Also he's purvy descriptions of her nips in all his NAs/ PDAs seems to corroborate this!

Si xx

[Paul Monk]

Yes. I got that from some of the excerpts of his diaries in Script Doctor. He can't help going on about her. Makes him sound about 14!
Must read the rest of the book sometime.

[Andrew Curnow]

At the risk of ending up deader than a Dodo, I'm going to try and take up the defence for Mr Cartmel here.

I know it's often slung around that his stories are hacked about, having had too much material filmed and consequently lack explanations, but I'm afraid that's not actually backed up by the stories themselves. It's true that there's a lot of material filmed which didn't make it into "Silver Nemesis" (reinstated in the video) but none of it is particularly explanatory material, and the story certainly makes sense enough as it stands; likewise, "The Curse of Fenric" has lost a lot (again, reinstated on video and DVD) but I'm not even sure any of that is essential to the plot. The plot of Fenric basically boils down to "another of Fenric's games" so you either accept that or not (which is another argument) - certainly, I didn't understand it any less in 1989 than I did watching the video in 2003.

It's interesting to note, though, that both of the above stories were filmed entirely on location - whether that common factor explains why they both ended up overlength, I don't know. Certainly I always thought part of the pre-production process was a timed readthrough of the script, so that by the time the cameras rolled the length was pretty much sorted out - however, I don't think that would fall specifically under the remit of the script editor, would it? Solving the problem, if they had to lose 10 minutes from a script, probably would, but I think the responsibility for the recording scripts being overlong would fall elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, no story is perfect, but I don't know that the decision (for example) to retain Mrs Remington at the expense of some more Cyberman scenes in "Silver Nemesis" would have been Cartmel's (more likely the director, or even producer, I would think).

I agree that the scripts for Fenric do leap about all over the place - in fact, it's not just part 1. Part 4 also has characters move arbitrarily from scene to scene, but by that time the momentum and sense of drama carries the viewer along and it's not so obvious. In part 1 it is, and always was, pretty evident to the viewer that the scenes kept chopping and changing...

...However, to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, it's arguably no more reprehensible than, say, the first part of "The Sea Devils" where after 10 minutes of security checks, the Doctor and Jo just say Hello to the Master and then go again. Or early in "The Five Doctors" where the 2nd Doctor turns up for the Brig's speech, but 30 seconds later is keen to be off. In both cases, the sequence is there to drive the story along (to reintroduce and explain the current situation of the Master in the former, to put Dr 2 and the Brig together in the latter) but are both pretty odd. Similarly, one could argue that the first part of Fenric has to establish all its locales and characters so that the rest of the story can follow suit. I'm not saying it's done with much subtlety, but it's hardly the only story where the practical requirements of TV drama take priority over a smooth and watertight storytelling.

By all accounts, he comes across as a complete jackass in his Script Diary book (and I don't go along with his "hero in his own show" notion from the Endgame documentary on the "Survival" DVD) but I don't really care about that, any more than I care if Tom was a nightmare to work with in 1980, or if Hartnell was a crotchety old bugger! Certainly, I think he's just what the show needed in 1987, in that he wasn't at all precious about what Doctor Who should be, he had enthusiasm and ideas, and (for me at least) he was largely responsible for three very enjoyable seasons.

[Captain Tancredi]

Cartmel's best stories have three or four ideas and homages bubbling away under the story- they're a more intelligent and subtle take and do bear several viewings.

I do however concur with the general opinion that the real Cartmel Masterplan was about a certain script editor getting in a certain leading lady's knickers.

[Pip Madeley]

I do however concur with the general opinion that the real Cartmel Masterplan was about a certain script editor getting in a certain leading lady's knickers.

@ Ian

[Andrew Curnow]

Gordon Bennett!!

[Jeff]

I do however concur with the general opinion that the real Cartmel Masterplan was about a certain script editor getting in a certain leading lady's knickers.

Which invites the question: Did he ever succeed?

[Andrew Curnow]

Of course, if he did then it means we can look at the title of this thread in an entirely different way. So Sophie, was Andrew Cartmel...

[Logo Polish]

I think Les Dennis beat him to it, according to what was reported at the time.


Edited, cos I mistakenly said Bobby Davro initially. Sorry if that frightened you, Pip.

[Pip Madeley]

Sophie Aldred and Bobby Davro? There's an image I didn't want in my head.

[Jon Masters]

Andrew Cartmel is without doubt the greatest power that ever graced the world of Doctor Who. It is to our eternal detriment that he was born at the wrong time, as he could have been script editor in 1963 when the programme was born and been made script editor eternal. That way we would have avoided all those ghastly pre-McCoy stories which had dodgy special effects, long episode counts and ,in some cases, no colour.

(I have re-started reading Through Time by A Cartmel, so I might be a bit biaised )

His NAs / PDAs are pretty shocking too

[Dave Lewis]

"Bilgebag! Stop looking at my doughnuts!", yelled Ace as the Great Destroyer levelled his mighty weapon at her.

[Pip Madeley]

"Don't point that thing near me" she said!

And then she came.

[Wayne]

[Captain Tancredi]

Sophie has started voicing an ad on Classic FM to encourage people to get their kids to play an instrument. She may well have told Cartmel to go and do something similar.

On the other hand, waking up to the sound of Sophie Aldred talking about self-discipline is far from the worst start to the day I've ever had...