Series 2 re-appraisal

[Ralph]

It took me ages to read all that!

You go to so much effort and I just slap a few lines down, As you'll probably have noticed if I feel passionate about something I can certainly do a go post...I was being a lazy b***er last night I have to admit and I'm flattered people want to know my views. In fairness this site would be dull wouldn't it if we always did such brief posts!

I think what makes you one of the most liked people on these boards Wayne is that you're pretty consistent and always give a good effort

Anyway the best form of defence is to complement the other party

[Wayne]

Awww shucks!

[Ralph]

The Girl in the Fireplace

This in my opinion is the best of new DW to date, it could have been a classic alas it is sadly marred by some aspects of Tennants performance and one or two needlessly naff parts of Tennant's script.

I really enjoyed it on first viewing and this second viewing has reaffirmed it as an excellent story.

The production is excellent with some lovely set pieces in the 18th century and no over use of CGI here - in fact I think the special effects for once are secondary to the story, enhancing it rather than being the main feature.

Sophie Myles looks gorgeous in the part and she gives a really convincing performance. Tennant lets the production down with the rather naff drunk scene which seems at odds with an otherwise classy production - pity.

For the first time I felt a story from the new series wasn't rushed at all but nicely paced - this was ideal for the one episode format. For once I actually cared about the characters and I love the storyline - a great combination of science fiction mixed in with the emotion attached to the relationship of Sophie's character and The Doctor - ultimately a relationship destined to fail.

The horse crashing through the glass was a nice touch as her "Knight in shining armour" to the rescue and a step that would jeopardise his own future.

The ending just hits you with the emotion of it and the scripting is very well written indeed at this stage.

OK the new series Daleks and Cyberman stories work relatively well but this is simply in a class of it's own - not about monsters but about the Doctor, about time, about people's lives he touches, and the consequences of his existence as a time traveller.

Ignoring the Doctor with the drunk scene and even the likes of the stupid "wind you up" joke with the robotic foes I'd give this 10/10 but in fairness I must drop it a point. So it's a worthy 9/10.

[Anthony Williams]

here goes....

The Girl in the Fireplace

It seems to me that, generally, people either love or hate this episode. I find myself in neither camp, having rather indifferent feelings to it.

Firstly, there's the usual problem: Rose. Once again, her jealousy spoils her character - she won't leave the Doctor alone when he's clearly mourning for Reinette at the end, and it's up to Mickey to guide her out of the console room.

Now, my other main bugbear for the script is that Moffat's arrogance shines through into the story itself. The Doctor "dancing" with Reinette is supposedly synonomous with sex - one of the massively taboo subjects in Doctor Who. The idea of The Doctor having a romantic relationship with one of the main characters of the story is something that has only been, AFAIK, done once before (in The Aztecs, where it was played for laughs, more than anything). Moffat seems to think that he can imply that the Doctor has sex, because he's this oh-so-fantastic-writer, who can get away with anything.

Likewise, the idea of the Doctor "snogging" (I use speech marks there, because I hate that word, but can't think of anything more appropriate) Reinette when the last time he saw her she was a little girl, is a little bit disturbing. She may have initiated, but he seems to embrace and enjoy it. Some people have come up with arguments to the contrary, but I think it's not a natural progression of the relationship at that point - I could see it developing later (if this sort of thing happened with the Doctor), but not at this point.

Then, we have the drunk scene. Seemingly different to most people, I don't mind this scene. It's played for laughs, and that's what it gets out of me.

However, the story does have many fantastic moments, too - the clockwork robots are brilliant, and quite menacing. The idea of them repairing the ship with living body parts is a fantastically chilling idea, and the fact that the ship rips a hole in time in order to find the final part is just brilliant.

Mickey continues to develop in this story, showing bravery, putting himself in front of Rose when confronted by the robots. The final scene shows that he has some sense, and I think that he makes a fantastic companion, both here, and later on in the series.

The final scene with The Doctor and the King of France, despite what I think about the Doctor's relationship with Reinette, is simply tear-jerking. The sorrow of two men - one of whom is clearly jealous of the other - works well.

Oh, and I quite like Arthur the Horse.

6/10

I may do Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel tonight.

Ant x

[Ralph]

Rise of the Cybermen

Watchable story but too contrived by far. The Tyler family and friends seem to be at hub of things - any particular reason? It's just bollocks and it weakens the story line. I think we already explored Rose meeting up with her Dad before - that was sufficient however clearly not enough for the writers. It was a poor decision in my opinion to build the Tyler family into the story and detracts on what otherwise could have been a more credible episode.

The rest of the story is quite good, personally I dislike those mobile phone earpieces people wear - When I see it I kid them on it's a "trainee hearing aid" - you won't catch me wearing one of those

The idea of the homeless being abducted seems quite credible. Some good moments as the victims are processed but the naff "Lion sleeps Tonight" doesn't work for me at all - still I suppose they had to pick something....

Nice closing scenes setting us up for next week but I know the Tylers are going to be central to saving the human race

6/10 is a fair score for this.

[Ralph]

here goes....

The Girl in the Fireplace

It seems to me that, generally, people either love or hate this episode. I find myself in neither camp, having rather indifferent feelings to it.

Reading Wayne's post on TGITFP I think you're right Ant as we appear poles apart. I must say I feel really heartened to know there's something I really like about the new series because I was feeling a bit left out

[Wayne]

It's too dull even to inspire hatred.
I'll be starting up again tomorrow with 'Love & Monsters'. I'm looking forward to this one!

[Jonno]

The Tyler family and friends seem to be at hub of things - any particular reason?

I would imagine it's for the same reason that we see the UNIT regulars in the parallel universe in Inferno - to see familiar but different characters, and compare and contrast them to the regular universe equivalents. The story wouldn't have the same impact if the party was being held for two characters we'd never met before. Equally, Jackie in peril and, indeed, being converted into a Cyberman has more impact on us than if it was a character we'd never met before.

[Ralph]

I would imagine it's for the same reason that we see the UNIT regulars in the parallel universe in Inferno - to see familiar but different characters, and compare and contrast them to the regular universe equivalents. The story wouldn't have the same impact if the party was being held for two characters we'd never met before. Equally, Jackie in peril and, indeed, being converted into a Cyberman has more impact on us than if it was a character we'd never met before.

Fair point!

[Andrew Curnow]

I'm following this thread with interest - I'm particularly intrigued that you love TGITF above most (all?) of the 21st Century Who output, Ralph. Is it simply because you enjoy it as a drama in its own right (rather than thinking of it as Who) or does it remind you of the sort of Who you like? I'm just really surprised that you should single that one out, as it seemed one of the more un-Whoy ones we've had so far.

[Ralph]

I'm following this thread with interest - I'm particularly intrigued that you love TGITF above most (all?) of the 21st Century Who output, Ralph. Is it simply because you enjoy it as a drama in its own right (rather than thinking of it as Who) or does it remind you of the sort of Who you like? I'm just really surprised that you should single that one out, as it seemed one of the more un-Whoy ones we've had so far.

Another fair point!

Now you've got me thinking - posssibly as a drama in it's own right now that you put it that way...actually I loved "Love and Monsters" and I guess thats un-whoy too! Now you've disproved my theory that I can love new Who

[Andrew Curnow]

Oops!

[Wayne]

Love & Monsters

Ok, i'm not doing an intensive review for this one, because IMO, this episode, which caused such a furore amongst certain elements of fandom, was never meant to be taken that seriously. This episode is a departure from the norm, & no we wouldn't Dr.Who to become like this every week, but this is clearly a bit of fun, & whilst it's true that humour is subjective, i was genuiney amazed at the hysterical over-reactions that this episode received in some quarters of fandom.
Not that this is purely an out & out comedy of course. Is there anyone hard enough not to feel for the lonely Jackie after she gets the phone call from Rose, & then after she finds Rose's photo in Elton's jacket? Am i the only one who feels a flush of warmth when Elton cheers her up by offering to get the pizza & spend some time with her?
Actually, the reappearance of Jackie is one of the highlights of the episode. As usual, a smashing little performance from Camille Coduri. I really enjoyed the whole Elton/seduction scene! "Ruined now".
Peter Kay's appearance was good fun. Particularly when he became the absorboloph, & reverted to his natural accent. Funniest moment: 'Klom!'. And the other characters were all played well, especially Marc Warren as Elton of course, & Ursula, played by strangely captivating Shirley Henderson.



'Love & Monsters' even on 3rd viewing for me, is still good fun, & viewed in the context of the whole season, still feels like such a refreshing change. A great laugh, but also with some nice, touching moments. It's a lighter episode, but IMO, it's all round good entertainment.

[Andy Frankham]

I, also, adore 'Love & Monsters', Wayne. For much the same reasons. And then we had the following episode...

[Wayne]

And then we had the following episode...

Indeed.


Fear Her

On paper this sounds like it should be good. Children being 'snatched out of thin air' in a suburban street set in the very near future, near enough to be contemporary. I had hoped that this one, like 'The Christmas Invasion', 'New Earth', & 'The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit', would be a significantly improved viewing experience for me, the 2nd time round; But although i'd say it did seem slightly better this time round, this one felt more along the lines of 'The Girl in the Fireplace', in that it remained a fairly dull episode for the most part on it's 2nd outing.
It's a very good concept for a story that's for sure, but it just seems to last for a long time without much happening. I found myself clock watching within 15/20 mins, & there also some naff bits which got on my nerves, like the Doctor's "Fingers on lips!" scene, which just seemed rather silly to me.
To be fair though, there are some quite good bits which seemed to raise it up a bit from what i remember from last year. The scenes where the Doctor tries to persuade the Chloe's mother to let him help are quite good. Tennant plays his part well: ("I'm Help") Also, the actress who plays the mother, puts across the concern & fear for her daughter very convincingly, & the scene where the Doctor hypnotizes the girl isn't bad, though the young actress playing the Chloe isn't particularly good, IMO.
Billie Piper plays a good scene re Rose's reaction against Chloe causing the Doctor's disappearance, but Rose's determination to succeed is possibly the only really inspirational thing about this story for me. The Doctor returning at the end to carry the olympic torch was really corny IMO, & the grandiose music just seemed to force it home even more. Truly naff.......
All in all then, i'm still not overly impressed. Apart from a few scenes around the middle of the episode, i found it difficult to get really involved in this one. Funnily enough, i found the the overall feel of it not dis-similar to the recent Sarah Jane Smith Adventures in that respect, because although i can't really fault 'Fear Her' big style, but it did leave me largely unaffected.

[Si Hunt]

We rewatched "Rise" and "Steel" recently and enjoyed them. The highpoints: Mrs Moore, the wonderful take on Cyber conversion, the parallel setting and the two Mickey's (and Jake, a dish in Who, he can fiddle with my emotions anyday).

Lowpoints - "Lion sleeps Tonight" just didn't work, Roger Lloyd-Packs performance is still woeful and there are lots of missed opportunities on the parallel Earth - the Tylers seem exactly the same, except they live in a big house and are slightly more grumpy.

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

Since Tennant is Scottish himself, I doubt they'd have got away with using fake cheesy Scots accents in Tooth And Claw, somehow....

[Jason Thompson]

And I'm not going to say a word about The Impossible Planet....

[Perry Vale]

I stalled on my S2 re-watching after The Impossible Planet a few weeks back, but managed to keep my eyes open for The Satan Pit a couple of days ago. I think I might just skip to AoG/Doomsday now....

[Andrew Curnow]

I've got a real soft spot for "Fear Her" because although it has its faults, it was the episode where I finally stopped comparing Tennant to Eccleston, and just enjoying him for what he is. Plus I love the graphite monster!

[Wayne]

Army of Ghosts/Doomsday

I know some people have never liked the Tyler family setting in the new Who, but i'm always pleased to return to the Powell estate. Admittedly, largely because Jackie has always been a favourite character, & i'm glad to see her return for the series finale. I particularly enjoy her concern for Rose, & how her lifestyle might be affect her future, in the scene about 15mins into Part 1.
My main gripe with the initial storyline behind 'Army of Ghosts' is that it felt to me like the 'ghosts' idea with regard to them appearing as 'back from the dead' relatives, was a bit brushed over very quickly. It seemed as though everyone on the planet just went along with it, & accepted who they were supposed to be too easily.
Still, there was a good sense of intrigue set up in Part 1, especially all the stuff taking place in the Torchwood insitute. Great moment where a Cyberman suddenly appears out of hiding! Also; although i don't mind the cultural references (Eastenders etc..etc..), i did think the 'Ghostbusters' line was a bit OTT/corny, & fell flat for me.
I have to say, i'm not really keen on the bit where that awful Oberman woman & the Torchwood people are all clapping the Doctor etc... outside the Tardis upon his arrival. What's that all about? Still, it gets better as it goes along. We've got the mysterious golden void ship, We've got the Cybermen secretly taking control of the Torchwood staff, making them open the breach which Hartman has been trying to tap power from. Meanwhile as the excitement builds during the latter half of Part 1, Rose, who's eventually caught out after sneaking out of the Tardis, meets Mickey, who's followed the Cybermen through the breach between universes. It's all good stuff once the adventure gets going, & i'm really pleased they brought Mickey back for the finale, as well!
Things really move up a gear for the last few minutes of Part 1, as the Cybermen appear & activate all the 'ghosts', that are really an army of Cybermen which start appearing all over the world, & down where Mickey & Rose are, something is happening inside the void ship....... The 'Mickey Smith - Defending the Earth' line is another example of cornball dialogue that occasionaly crops up in the New Series, but i find it easy to overlook these minor gripes which are outweighed by all the good stuff. Meanwhile, the Cybermen inform the Doctor that the sphere is nothing to do with them, & that they only followed it through the void.......
You can appreciate that as a big fan of the Daleks, that that cliffhanger is the supreme moment Series 2 for me! I still feel slightly exhilarated when the they suddenly appear from inside the sphere with their familiar rhetoric - 'LIFEFORMS DETECTED! EXTERMINATE!' A superb cliffhanger!
As Part 2 kicks off, a quick thinking Rose stalls the Daleks, whilst the Cybermen try to consolidate their domination of the planet, & enevitably the two super races come into contact. I love the brief stand-off between the Daleks & Cyb's, although it was inevitable that the Daleks would refuse to lower themselves to make an alliance with the crude cybernetic constructs - 'REQUEST DENIED! - choosing to sweep them aside & destroy them instead. I'd totally forgotten about the brilliant 'PEST CONTROL!' which made me laugh out loud again! I unashamedly love all the Dalek dialouge: 'WE WOULD DESTROY THE CYBERMEN WITH ONE DALEK! 'YOU ARE SUPERIOR IN ONLY ONE RESPECT - YOU ARE BETTER AT DYING!




As the story progresses, the Doctor meets Pete again, & Jake & crew through the paralell universe, & finds out what's happened on the alternative Earth, & Doctor explains to them about the damage that's being done to the breach. Meanwhile, the daleks reveal that the 'Genesis Ark' is Time Lord technology, & there's a good bit where Rose tells them how she destroyed the Emporer. Congrats to Nick Briggs here, who gets the Black Dalek's reactions spot on, in injecting just the right amount of aghast affrontedness in the Dalek's voice. However, when the Doctor appears to confront the Daleks, i have some reservations about how Tennant plays the scene, & i can't help but be reminded of how good Eccleston was in this regard.......
I enjoyed the scene between Jackie & Pete, which was very well played by both Camille Coduri & Shaun Dingwall, with a nicely portrayed reaction by Billie Piper. Meanwhile, Part 2 is interspersed with some great battle scenes between the Daleks & the Cybermen. The second half i thought was very enjoyable for the most part, though it does lean towards bcoming a hollywood 'spectacular' once the millions of daleks are released from the prison ship. It still looks great though, & is very watchable. Also, i do think there might be a case for RTD having over egged the pudding slightly what with saying goodbye to Rose, Cybermen, Daleks, & the return of Mickey & Pete. Also, there are a few Tennant/Doctor moments that still grate, & i don't see any reason why Yvonne Hartman would be able to resist the Cyber conditioning, if it comes to that. But even despite these niggles, it was good viewing overall. Camille Coduri was great as ever, & this was possibly her finest hour as Jackie. Billie was equally superb as always, but i did feel that the whole goodbye thing was just that little bit too 'milked'. And Tennant's 'sad doctor' doesn't convince me here, anymore than it did in 'The Girl in the Fireplace'. I just think they made a bit too much of a meal of the Rose thing, somehow.
I've really enjoyed Rose, Jackie, & Mickey, & although it might be a bit convenient that they've all ended up a cosy little family in the parallel world, i thought it made for a really nice ending. I don't mind downbeat endings, but in this case i was glad to see that all survived together.
So when all's said & done, i still think there are a few dodgy aspects to this finale. It doesn't live up to 'Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways' in my eyes, But nevertheless, the good stuff easily outweighs any perceived flaws on my part.

As for the season as a whole, it's been good to give it another go. I think on balance my view of it, & Tennant in particular has gone up slightly, if not significantly. I think some of the Doctor moments that don't appeal to me are as much about the dialogue/material that he's called upon to work with, & the way the chatracter of the Doctor is engineered by the production team, just as much as the way Tennant's forced OTTness comes across at times.
But my thoughts are largely more positive. None of the stories seem worse for another viewing. My feelings on the most of them have ended up roughly the same as last year, (be they favourites or my least favourites), but my feeling on some of them have improved, And to reflect that, here's my rankings for the season.
And just for the hell of it, although technically not part of this thread, i've included 'The Runaway Bride', which is still fairly fresh in my mind from a couple of months ago.

Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel
School Reunion
Army of Ghosts/Doomsday
Love and Monsters
Tooth and Claw
The Christmas Invasion
New Earth
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit
The Idiot's Lantern
The Runaway Bride
Fear Her
The Girl in the Fireplace


Over to Ant & Ralph. :-p ;-D

[Ralph]

I can't believe you placed GITFP so low Wayne

shocking, quite shocking!

[Wayne]

I can't believe you placed GITFP so low Wayne

shocking, quite shocking!

Not as shocking as you giving it 9/10!

[Ralph]

The Age of Steel 8/10

Well paced episode.

Highlights:

The Cyber corridor coming alive and The Doctor's narrow escape.

The emotion of the girl trapped in the cyberbody who was about to get married - very well done.

Lumic prematurely gets an upgrade.

The Cybermen look suitably menacing stomping around but I was disappointed it was so easy for them to take over...in days gone by at least we'd have a decent UNIT battle with lots of ineffective bullets but thats half the fun...

One of Tennant's better performances makes a nice change.

Oh dear we lost Mickey to the parallel universe - no emotional attachment for me - all the best Mickey

Can't get overly excited to write a lot to be honest so these few lines will need to do!

[Wayne]

The Age of Steel 8/10

Can't get overly excited

8/10 is a pretty good score for something you can't overly excited about.

in days gone by at least we'd have a decent UNIT battle with lots of ineffective bullets but thats half the fun...

At least you'll get a bit of this in the season finale. Even if it's not UNIT.