Time And The Rani @ 20

[Pip Madeley]

Mr Curnow wanted a Time And The Rani forum banner, so he's got one! And with it comes the question, do you like it or hate it? It's 20 years old this autumn, did you watch it on transmission? Or did you have Corrie on? Was it the beginning of the end of Doctor Who or a colourful new start? Let's talk!

[Milky Tears]

McCoy's debut was the first episode of Who I was forced to watch in another room. My mum was watching Corrie at the same time.

Just recorded the rest of Season 24 after that. It's a load of old toot.

[Phillip Culley]

It's not great, but I've never thought it as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

It's better than Dragonfire, anyway

[Paul Clement]

It started off badly and got worse as it went on, which is the opposite of Season 24 as a whole which got better though never great.

I watched it on it's original transmission with a few of my family members in the room and can remember feeling distinctly embarrassed by the whole thing. I think it was that feeling that made me watch the rest of the series on a portable tv in the back room. It was also the period of time I got the most stick at school for liking Doctor Who as most of my peers thought it was a load of old rubbish too, and while I would agree about Time and the Rani, I still had faith in Doctor Who as a whole to come good.

[Si Hunt]

I think it's great. The problem with Doctor Who in the mid eighties is that because there were a core of fans who had grown up with the series, the series had been forced to grow up with them - thus they demanded more adult stories full of self-gratifying continuity references back to the past. But how selfish was this? The problem was that it meant a whole generation of children didn't have a "Doctor Who" they could call their on. "Time & The Rani" was Doctor Who going back to its roots - trying to appeal once again to younger viewers, and become the carefree, standalone fantasy adventure series that, ironically, many moaning older viewers at the time had loved about the series to start with. Except with fantastic effects. It could easily be an early Patrick Troughton adventure.

"Time" starts with a bright rainbow of colour, hidden but menacing monsters, a strange and outerworldy new planet, some aliens under oppression and a clowning yet fiendishly clever Doctor there to help. It basically IS an early Troughton.

I suggest people watch this and "Trial" and try and work out which was a better move for the show's future. Forward thinking, traditional and... well... fun! We, the kids, got our Doctor Who back.

Si.

[Andrew Curnow]

Si's pretty much said it all, although I'll doubtless post a bit more later - I've got to go to work now though. Suffice to say, I don't think it's "bobbins" and in two decades I don't think I've ever really seen anybody give a reasoned argument as to why it's so pilloried in fan circles. It just always seems to boil down to "in 1987, Jeremy Bentham & co didn't like it" - JN-T may have taken a lot of stick for his "memory cheats" defence, but he's absolutely right. Even if you hate TATRani you have to admit it's at the very least better than Colony in Space, or The Space Museum, or The Chase, or The Space Pirates, or...

Back soon, but now to work (time and tide melts the snowman you know)!

And again, great banner, thanks Pip!!

[SiHart]

It all began with one of the greatest TARDIS in space shots ever. Tumbling! So exciting.

It all seemed so fresh and colourful back in 1987. I voted top of the season survey that year. I still like it. I know it's mostly a lot of old tosh, but there's something about it I really like. I'm just not quite certain what that something actually is!

Si xx

[Logo Polish]

I hated it at the time, found it virtually impossible to watch - but I don't think this was because of the reasons Si suggests, as I hadn't liked Trial, or the Colin stuff in general much either. I think it was partly a combination of being completely fed up with the whole thing at the time, even before the story aired, of finding the acting and dialogue in the opening scenes terrible, and not really caring much about the story. Not so much a dislike of the series doing kiddie-friendly stories...just a wish it could have done some that appealed more to me personally (saying that though, I was sixteen at the time, which is rarely an ideal age for that sort of thing).

That was then. As for now...well, I find it quite amiable these days. It's colourful, exciting in parts, McCoy makes quite a likeable befuddled Doctor, oddly reminiscent of Johnny Ball (check out a shot in the first episode of The Happiness Patrol where he straightens up from trying to repair a buggy...he even looks exactly like him from that angle for a few seconds), and the fact that it's now out of period gives its (arguably) kitsch 80s-ness (eg Mel's costume) a certain camp charm I wouldn't have picked up on at the time. There are still some elements I'm not keen on (the genius gathering stuff, and the giant brain is perhaps a shade too cartoonish), but it has a freshness and confidence that goes a long way.

Still seems bizarre that this somehow mutated into the New Adventures only four or five years later.

[Logo Polish]

JN-T may have taken a lot of stick for his "memory cheats" defence, but he's absolutely right. Even if you hate TATRani you have to admit it's at the very least better than Colony in Space, or The Space Museum, or The Chase, or The Space Pirates, or...

Weeellll...

I don't hate it, but in story terms I'd put it on about a par with one of those, below one of the others, and above the other two. Although it's better made than all of them.

[Si Hunt]

At least it's not boring. In fact, I honestly, hand-on-my-heart, can't see what's so wrong with it. The central concept - Doctor Who and girl assistant land in quarry, dodge monsters and free alien populace from invading rulers - is so Doctor Who you're practically knocking the series if you don't like it.

Being objective, the things I think established fans must have disliked about it/dislike about it now is that

(a) It doesn't make complete sense (for a scientist i.e there's a bit of bafflegab) and
(b) It's production is occasionally a little bit silly and fun

But to my mind, these arn't things that can make a story unwatchable; in short, their traits that a child could easily overlook because they're fun, whereas an adult or teenager, worried about damaging their credibility, would damn the whole story with. This seems to be proven by the fact that people don't like McCoys slapstick costume changes, yet nobody ever complains about exactly the same thing in "Robot".

Si.

[Rob McCow]

Pip and Jane's writing and dialogue is an acquired taste - or more accurately, an acquired tolerance. Once you get over that and the kitsch-ness of it all, there's a lot to enjoy. It's a story that demands you watch it on it's own terms!

[MacNimon]

I hadn't been greatly impressed by the TOATL season, and I was really hoping that the casting of McCoy as the Doctor would be a breath of fresh air for the series. I was gobsmacked after watching the opening installment of this story, though...I think it was mostly McCoy's awful performance in this which put me off at the time. I thought he was absolutely terrible in the early scenes; he has grown on me a little over the years, but to this day he remains my least favourite Doctor. Admittedly the story is well-made, I couldn't fault the production team on the look of the serial...the special effects etc were ok and as for the story itself, there have certainly been poorer ones over the years. It all comes back to McCoy's embarrassing performance for me...I was in a state of shock after watching this episode!

[Si Hunt]

But surely a part of you expects the Doctor to be a little disorientated after his regeneration? Even I expected that, and I was only 10 when it went out.

Si.

[MacNimon]

Yes, of course you expect the Doctor to be disoriented after his regeneration. But I'd rather see it well-performed...imo McCoy just didn't have the acting experience necessary to do this convincingly.

[Logo Polish]

I think the dialogue and styles of acting seen aren't going to appeal to everyone, inevitably. Also, I'd have thought it depended on how you feel about what it does with the central concept eg whether you think the story has enough of interest to make you stay with it - I can see how opinions on that would vary. Acquired tastes, like Rob said. Some kinds of silly can be fun to some people and irritating to others. I have a feeling Kate O' Mara isn't everyone's bowl of petunias either.

I like the sets (some of the darker interiors in the Rani's base remind me of Full Circle, as do the bright yellow and orange costumes of the Lakertyans), and the colouring for the exterior scenes. Not fond of the music, apart from the light jazzy track which the Centre of Leisure seems to be playing - that suits the mood of the place quite well.

[Wayne]

I've got loads of mixed feelings about all this. Whilst MacNimon's post has pretty much said most of it for me, (apart from my dislike of Mel/Bonie Langford, which is another factor) I acknowledge Si's points about it being for more kids, & fans wanting Dr Who to grow up with them etc..
For myself, i think it's fair to say that i didn't expect it to grow up with me, But i did acknowledge that i had grown out of it. I stopped watching when i was about 14. I was hanging on by a thread during the latter stages of S15, & i only really saw bits & pieces of it now & again after that. Most of you will know that even by the time i'd joined PS in 2002, I had still never seen the vast majority of the 80's stuff, including most of Tom's last couple of years.
However, because of circumstances at the time, i did see a lot McCoy's first season. A close friend of mine was a working single mum with 2 kids aged 8 & 10, & i used to look after them as my friend was doing a lot of 24hr shifts at a hostel for the homeless. So we used to watch Dr.Who.
It's no word of a lie that these 2 kids seemed to find the majority of what we watched rather laughable. Honestly! If even kids of that age thought it was naff, there's no wonder the producers eventually tried to bring a more serious quality back to the show during the later stages of McCoy's era.
For myself, i obviously felt completely out of touch with it. McCoy & Langford were so apalling that i couldn't really believe it. I just thought the whole thing was an embarrassment. But back to this thing about more serious Who. The first Dr.Who i ever watched was S7, which is when the programme was going through one of it's more 'serious' phases. The term 'gritty realism' is often applied, & i think it had a strong impact on me as a 6 & 7yr old boy, & i would say it shaped my Who tastes towards the more serious toned stuff. And to me, the likes of 'Spearhead From Space' & 'Inferno' are about as far away from 'Time & the Rani' et al, as you can get. It's no surprise to me really, that i always got on better with McCoy's later stuff when to my mind, it got a bit more like the kids show that i had grown up with.

[Dirk Gently]

I don't dislike it but I'm not a big fan...(but then I don't think there's a bad Doctor Who story at all), but the big problem I have with TatR & season 24 on the whole is that Doctor Who started out as a family show & really matured in to that role during the Pertwee & T.Baker era's and continued to be so until the hiatus. In fact ToaTL was still being so but I found that season 24 became a kids show & Doctor Who was never intended to be so. As McCoy's era moved on it regained more of the family feel that it lost so quickly in S24 until by S26 it was back to it's best in that regard & it was then that Doctor Who was let down by the BBC & cancelled.
Had Doctor Who been axed after S24 I don't think it would have hurt as much as it did but it was back on form by 1989 & it really didn't deserve to go then.

All in my opinion of course.

[Antony Cox]

I've always liked TATR. It's a fun story which as somebody said, should be watched on it's own terms to be enjoyed the most. Sylv is/was never going to win any acting awards, but that doesn't really matter here - he gets by and does the job. And I for one like the character of Mel because she's so annoying - and Mel is just brilliantly done by Bonnie Langford for the same reason.

Can't wait for it to be out on DVD!

[Ralph]

Interesting points here. This idea of growing up with Who....yet at age 7 starting off with Season 7 and I loved it! I think children are smarter than we think?

Growing up I enjoyed a lot of adult tv shows (no not those ones Tim ) - I don't agree that children necessarily are better treated with "Rentaghost" to fulfill their childhood.

In answer to the initial question McCoy's entry was the final nail in the coffin

[Si Hunt]

McCoy was a funny choice to play the Doctor. I think we have to be honest and say that, for once, budget was a primary concern. He's not (or at least, to be charitable, wasn't then) a great actor and neither was Sophie Aldred. We made do, and I don't blame JNT one bit - I suspect he cast the most interesting, versatile actor he could afford to pay. By Season 26 this leads to a frankly bizarre scenario where mountain-sized scripts about childhood trauma and a Dark Time Lord God battling the forces of destruction are being played out by a light entertainment funnyman and a kids TV presenter. It really is strange.

But at least Sylv is interesting - JNT gave us that. He may gurn sometimes but he has a flexible face, a colourful accent and can switch from moody manipulator (something he grew ever more adept to with practise) to kindly 'old man'. I think he really blossomed, but TATR is his first story and as with the other Doctors it seems churlish to judge his Doctor on his first performance - even ignoring the fact he's under sedation for much of this anyway.

Si.

[Antony Cox]

under sedation for much of this anyway.

Some would say that the audience should have been, too but I'm not one of them.

[SiHart]

To be fair, the dialogue is completely overblown and not at all naturalistic, but I find that part of the charm of the story. It's so over the top, that it makes it great fun and completely divorced from any reality whatsoever. It's more entertaining here than it was in Mark of the Rani, which was aiming for some kind of realism.

Si xx

[Rob McCow]

Growing up with Doctor Who - At the time of Time, Doctor Who was still to scary for me. I used to enjoy Hi-De-Hi which was shown immediately afterwards though.

I caught the last 3 minutes of episode 3, where the Doctor is put into the brain wobbling machine and Mel is held screaming captive by a Tetrap. I found it absolutely terrifying and for the right reasons! At the time it was proof positive that Doctor Who was still too scary.

[Larry]

I'm sorry there is just nothing good to say about Time And The Rani, it is IMO probably the worst story of the old series it's so bad it makes The Web Planet look lice a fast paced action packed clasic.

The the whole thing just went down hill from the moment of that botched up regeneration and just got worse and worse the story/plot was awful and the acting was like some thing out of a pantomime. But worse of all was Sylvestor Mccoy, his over the top pratting around and falling over was and still is painfully embarrassing to watch.


Doctor Who, in the late 80's was a tired stale programm that was dying on it's feet and IMO the programm reached it's lowest ever point with the utter abysmal crap we were served up in season 24.

[Si Hunt]

Why not say what you really think Larry?

Si.