A Fistful of Westerns

[Wayne]

Rio Bravo (1959)

I enjoyed this one for the performances but it’s very different in style to my favourite so far, “Warlock” which has become a bit of a benchmark for me. This doesn’t quite feel to me like a slice of the how the West might have been but more a vehicle for the actors. That said it does work well for as long as you like the actors you will enjoy much of the film. While in “Warlock” there is a real feeling of perceived danger and Fonda while giving a great performance of being in control also shows subtle elements of vulnerability, for example the way he takes a drink after a confrontation indicating an element of stress. Wayne might take a drink after a shoot out but it’s always just lifestyle and you never get that feeling that he was under pressure. I reckon Fonda earned his money harder than Wayne.

The film is a slower pace and this allows a lot of character development, there’s certainly as much time spent here as in Warlock in creating characters you really care about but while Warlock is dark and moody this is often light entertainment on a Western format.

Possibly for me the star of the movie is Walter Brennan whose “Stumpy” character while possibly an OTT performance I nevertheless found very entertaining. Dean Martin does a good job as a man finding his self respect again after years on the bottle – I guess it’s the best straight acting performance of the film. John Wayne plays himself as Roger Moore does his own thing. I would be a hypocrite therefore if I knocked Wayne for this as when you have such a charismatic personality that has huge appeal for the audience then why not? You can’t help but admire Wayne’s presence in a film like this – it was made for him and the chemistry with Martin & Brennan works exceedingly well.

Warlock had slow elements and this has it’s share too – much of it for the same reason building further character development plus the romantic interest for Wayne. Angie Dickinson who plays the love interest is certainly stunning and while she adds fabulous eye candy I’m not convinced she adds much else. Similarly Rickie Nelson a teenage heart throb apparently of the era was chosen to be included for this reason only to get bums on seats – he adds little else to the movie.

On the music side I liked the Mexican music running through many parts of the movie – it gives it touches of the classic Morricone scores that were to hit the scene some 5 years later. Therefore I rate this the best of the soundtracks so far. Something else which touched upon an aspect I admire in the Spaghetti westerns is the lack of dialogue in the first 4 minutes or so of the film.

It’s very much an under siege movie based around the Sherriff’s office and jail, it never moves far from that and therefore isn’t a scenic movie but it wasn’t a downside for me as a like this type of film. Clearly Wayne and director Howard Hawks loved the format as we shall see again in Eldorado and Rio Lobo which I recall enjoying also.

Apparently also Hawks and Wayne wanted to make this as their answer to High Noon where they clearly disapproved of the Sherriff being portayed as a weak figure who must seek help from the town’s people.

So a good John Wayne movie to see him do his usual thing with great supporting performances but you have to appreciate the slower pacing and think more of entertainment rather than a slice of the real West. My score then 6.5

Next up will be "The Alamo" and a DVD that just arrived yesterday "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" where another western icon James Stewart makes his first appearance in this thread as well as Lee Marvin. I'll lend you my copy shortly Wayne

I watched Rio Bravo earlier, & i think you've covered all the points very well. I'm beginning to appreciate now the benefits of being the first to post on the Dracula thread.
I was pleased that in this case the slower pacing worked much better than 'The Searchers'. This was largely down to the development of a good mix of characters that were entertaining in different ways - Something which was a bit lacking in 'The Searchers'.
I find the comparisons you've made to Warlock/Fonda interesting, although it never ocurred to me whilst watching this film to make any comparisons - i think it was a case of just enjoying it for what it was. Fonda is by far a better & more versatile actor than Wayne, & Wayne's western character's rarely have many shades to them in the way that Fonda's character in 'Warlock' did. Yet in spite of this, i'd say i enjoyed 'Rio Bravo' slightly more. Partly because i found the overall pace a tad better, & because Fonda & DeForest Kelley aside, no-one else in the film made much of an impact on me, (i was especially unimpressed with Widmark) whereas i liked all the characters in 'Rio Bravo'. Ricky Nelson was the weakest link i thought. I didn't think he was terrible, but i think his character could've been played by anyone.
I liked Dean Martin's role. I thought his best scenes were when his character was struggling not to sink back into his old drinking problem. This was handled well because it didn't fall back on the humour which i was expecting more of from Dean Martin. John Wayne himself seemed much more effective than he did in 'The Searchers', & again i particularly liked the scenes between Chance & Dude where he was being really hard on him about his possible lapse back into alchoholism.
Undoubtedly, Walter Brennan's character of Stumpy was largely there as the humour element, but in fairness he did it so well that i couldn't help but warm to the character, & i was pleased when he disobeyed Chance's intructions not to turn up for the exchange/showdown with the bad guys.
I agree with your thoughts on Angie Dickinson's character. She provided quality eye candy, but the bits of romantic storyline slowed the movie up a bit, particularly around the 50min mark. I thought she was quite good at the drunken bit when she stumbled up the stairs, & i loved the outfit at the end, but largely she was just there because they always have to put a woman/romancey bit in there somewhere.
All in all though, i didn't have any real problems with the pace because it never seemed to stay focussed on one scene too long, which is something that i found with 'Warlock', & i thought it picked up well for the confrontation at the end. Also, i liked John Wayne's 'tell it like it is' approach when dealing with Nathan Burdette who was trying different approaches to free his brother, but Chance wasn't having any of it.
So overall this one pips 'Warlock' for me, with a 7/10. And although 'The Alamo' is the next 'official' one, i have a few unbilled extras from my Dad, which i'll stick in chronologically, so i'll be trying out 1959's 'The Horse Soldiers' tomorrow night.

Edited to mention that the only other thing i wasn't so keen on was was the singing bits by Martin & Nelson.

[Ralph]

I find the comparisons you've made to Warlock/Fonda interesting, although it never ocurred to me whilst watching this film to make any comparisons - i think it was a case of just enjoying it for what it was.

For the purposes of the thread my comparison is purely to makes it easier to decide the ranking of one movie to another. I totally agree on the movies themselves as with "Doctor Who" I look at is as a piece of entertainment while viewing and then decide on what I noticed afterwards. To consider it otherwise would definitely miss the point and takes away the pleasure.

I liked Dean Martin's role. I thought his best scenes were when his character was struggling not to sink back into his old drinking problem.

I was wondering because he acts it so well if he was too familiar with the material
The bit where he pours the glass back into the bottle and Wayne’s expression is a great scene.

Undoubtedly, Walter Brennan's character of Stumpy was largely there as the humour element, but in fairness he did it so well that i couldn't help but warm to the character, & i was pleased when he disobeyed Chance's intructions not to turn up for the exchange/showdown with the bad guys.

Yeah I was pleased to see him turn up too and the banter as he throws the dynamite is great.

I agree with your thoughts on Angie Dickinson's character. She provided quality eye candy, but the bits of romantic storyline slowed the movie up a bit, particularly around the 50min mark. I thought she was quite good at the drunken bit when she stumbled up the stairs, & i loved the outfit at the end,

Yeah that outfit was very sexy indeed! A highlight of the movie!

All in all though, i didn't have any real problems with the pace because it never seemed to stay focussed on one scene too long, which is something that i found with 'Warlock', & i thought it picked up well for the confrontation at the end.

Interesting how you see the pacing on Warlock still slower – for both I’m pretty happy myself.

Also, i liked John Wayne's 'tell it like it is' approach when dealing with Nathan Burdette who was trying different approaches to free his brother, but Chance wasn't having any of it.

Yes that is good – This really is Wayne’s appeal isn’t it.

So overall this one pips 'Warlock' for me, with a 7/10. And although 'The Alamo' is the next 'official' one, i have a few unbilled extras from my Dad, which i'll stick in chronologically, so i'll be trying out 1959's 'The Horse Soldiers' tomorrow night.

I’ll be interested to hear about “The Horse Soldiers” . As for the rankings I’m leaving room for what’s to come but when I do a final ranking session I think I’ll adjust again. Anything I give 6 or more to is definitely something I like. 4 or less is something I wouldn’t bother watching again.

Edited to mention that the only other thing i wasn't so keen on was was the singing bits by Martin & Nelson.

Can’t say I was fussed either but I think it was obligatory for Martin to give a performance!

[Wayne]

I was wondering because he acts it so well if he was too familiar with the material

Good point!

Yes that is good – This really is Wayne’s appeal isn’t it.

Yeah, he's the Western Jack Regan. Funny how that trait always seems to appeal to me.

I’ll be interested to hear about “The Horse Soldiers” . As for the rankings I’m leaving room for what’s to come but when I do a final ranking session I think I’ll adjust again. Anything I give 6 or more to is definitely something I like. 4 or less is something I wouldn’t bother watching again.

Fair do's.
And on the scoring, i'm really looking at 7's & above for repeat viewing. In this genre there's tougher qualifications compared to a genre that really captures my imagination like horror movies.

[Ralph]

6 and above for repeat viewings for me but then I think I score generally 1 mark less than you on these things. The Searchers is one that I feel having seen I don't need to do so again.

I don't know if you spotted my note on the Horse Soldiers earlier in relation to it's screening on TV back in 1980, I edited a post you may have read pre-edit.

[Wayne]

I don't know if you spotted my note on the Horse Soldiers earlier in relation to it's screening on TV back in 1980, I edited a post you may have read pre-edit.

Ah yes. It doesn't ring a bell, but i may remember the film once i get watching it.

[Ralph]

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

Plot:
“Senator Ranse Stoddard (James Stewart) returns to the city of Shinbone in the Wild West, to go to the funeral of his friend, Tom Doniphon (John Wayne). To a journalist, who's wondering what the senator is doing in Shinbone, he tells how his career started as "the man who shot Liberty Valance". As a lawyer he came to Shinbone to bring law and order to the west by means of law books. When the stagecoach is held up by outlaws, he is savagely beaten by Liberty Valance (Lee Marvin),. He survives the attack and is nursed by his future wife, Hallie. Hallie is being wooed by a local rancher, Tom Doniphon. Ranse teaches the people of Shinbone to read and write, all the while trying to find a way of bringing Valance to justice. He finally takes up a gun and faces Valance in a menacing shootout...”

Well I found this one a major disappointment. From what I understood it’s a John Ford classic. It has James Stewart, John Wayne, Lee Marvin and even Lee Van Cleef so you’d think it would be good for the era but still I found it dull.

The main issue for me is that it just feels so terribly old fashioned for a movie at a time when the Hollywood Western was a mainstream production. It’s not helped by being in black and white – it might as well have been made in 1942 not ’62. Compared to the last few films it feels a real retrograde step. The music again is not noticeable – as dull as the film.

The part James Stewart during the majority of the film is as young newly qualified Lawyer presumably supposed to be in his 20s yet Stewart must be 50 so it's just a bit odd looking.

Lee Marvin wears the black hat and John Wayne the white so all the clichés are in place. While Lee Marvin’s screentime is the best part and he plays his part with zeal, John Wayne’s character in this one is not his usual self but instead a more passive character so he doesn’t really have much impact. Lee Van Cleef is totally wasted – it’s amazing to think his super stardom was just 3 years later.

Indeed compare this to a Fistfull of Dollars two years later and it’s easy to see why the Spaghetti Westerns were such a breath of fresh air.

Perhaps I’ve missed the special qualities on this one but if this was typical of the standard of the Westerns on this thread I would have no enthusiasm to kick the thread off in the first place. So it gets 3.5/10 for wasting a good cast.

The Searchers was another John Ford Western...so so far I’m unimpressed. I checked out what other Westerns he did and Horse Soldiers came up – best of luck with that one Wayne!

[Wayne]

Doesn't look promising!

[Wayne]

And although 'The Alamo' is the next 'official' one, i have a few unbilled extras from my Dad, which i'll stick in chronologically, so i'll be trying out 1959's 'The Horse Soldiers' tomorrow night.

The Horse Soldiers (1959)

"A Union Cavalry outfit is sent behind confederate lines in strength to destroy a rail/supply centre. Along with them is sent a doctor who causes instant antipathy between him and the commander. The secret plan for the mission is overheard by a southern belle who must be taken along to assure her silence. The Union officers each have different reasons for wanting to be on the mission."

Well i have to say i found this disappointing. It's another (almost) 2hr long film, but this one really does feel as though nothing much really happens for the first hour, & you feel that everything that does happen could've been covered in less than half the time.
Unfortunately, something like this can seriously hinder the overall effect of a film, because by the time things had started to happen, i'd started to lose interest & struggled to care about what happens to the characters.
The film is apparently based on a true event during the American Civil War, but i don't care so much for these 'cavalry' movies as i do more straight ahead westerns, & from an entertainment point of view, it's lucky that the film does have a bit more action in the latter half or this could be an even lower score than 'The Searchers'.
John Wayne is just... well.... John Wayne in this one, but he doesn't have as many good moments as he does in 'Rio Bravo'. His best moment is when he gets upset & angry as he reveals to Hannagh Hunter the reason for his dislike & distrust of doctors. This is probably the only type of emtional outburst that Wayne with his limited acting abilities can really come anywhere near close to character empathy. For instance when he tries genuine sympathy & sadness when friend/housemaid is killed, his delivery is the same as most of his other dialogue. Similarly, when he declares his love for Hannah at the end of the film, it's typically wooden.
There's reasonably good support from William Holden as the medical officer, but it's Constance Tower's portrayal of Hannah Hunter that's arguably the best all round performance of the film, because of there's a more versaltile range of moods for the character, from humour to sadness, to sensitivity. Aside from her though, the characters aren't as memorable as the characters in 'Rio Bravo' IMO, & it was obvious that Wayne's character & the Doctor, who started off at odds with each other, would be be friends by the end of the movie, just as it was obvious that he would fall in love with Hannah.
So, not a great film then, but picks up slightly in the latter half, (if you can last that long) so fares a notch better than 'The Searchers'.
4.5/10. I wouldn't really recommend it, to be honest.

[Ralph]

Well thats enough recommendation for me to give that one a miss. John Ford Westerns aren't faring very well are they?

[Wayne]

Well thats enough recommendation for me to give that one a miss. John Ford Westerns aren't faring very well are they?

No they're not. And it doesn't look like Liberty Vallance is much to look forward to.
As for 'The Horse Soldiers', I'd pass it onto someone else, but it looks like we're the only ones interested in doing this thread, so you might as well have it yourself. You might want to try it to make your own mind up, but i wouldn't hold it against you if you just threw it away.

[Ralph]

Shall we say likewise on Liberty Valance!

I suspect the Alamo could be a tough one...but I'll give it a try!

[Wayne]

Ok. I will give it a try though. I like to make up my own mind on these things. Or maybe i'm just a sucker for punishment.

[Ralph]

Well you could have it on in the background if it doesn't grab your attention after the first half hour and reduce the pain!

Despite disappointment on a couple I do know they'll be getting better soon!

[Ralph]

I was just thinking all we need now to top off the set of turkeys is that bloody awful Hartnell Cowboy story but that would be real misery!

[Ralph]

The Alamo (1960)

Plot:
“In 1836 General Santa Anna and the Mexican army is sweeping across Texas. To be able to stop him, General Sam Huston needs time to get his main force into shape. To buy that time he orders Colonel William Travis to defend a small mission on the Mexicans' route at all costs. Travis' small troop is swelled by groups accompanying Jim Bowie and Davy Crockett, but as the situation becomes ever more desperate Travis makes it clear there will be no shame if they leave while they can.

I’ve seen this on TV a few times in the past but then as now it fails to hold my attention properly and I find myself with it on in the background.

Perhaps it appeals more to Americans but I just can’t feel any great passion for the story and the characters – I think it fails to engage the viewer properly.

Probably the problem is that John Wayne directs, produces and stars – it just feels like a sprawling flabby film. I understand this was Wayne’s pet project that he was really passionate about but I think he should have left the directing to someone else and you could cut a good half hour and more out the film. The music again in these films doesn’t help either, it’s all very samey classic Western music which in my view adds only adds to the blandness of the atmosphere.

By comparison the 60s War Epic “Battle of The Bulge” which I watched over Christmas was just as long but great fun to watch.

Finally I’d say the documentary on the DVD held my attention more than the film itself.

So that’s another one for a lower score – I’d give it 4.5/10

Anyway next up for me is A Fistful of Dollars!

[Wayne]

I don't remember if i've ever seen 'The Alamo'. That either means i haven't seen it or it made no impact on me.
I'll give it a go over the weekend. Can't handle too many westerns in too short a space of time.

[Ralph]

I don't remember if i've ever seen 'The Alamo'. That either means i haven't seen it or it made no impact on me.
I'll give it a go over the weekend. Can't handle too many westerns in too short a space of time.

I bet you've just seen bits of the Alamo like me and as for too many Westerns, I know what you mean, I'm giving it a rest myself, Fistful needs a clean break

[Jon Masters]

but it looks like we're the only ones interested in doing this thread,

Now, hold your horses there stranger. Some of us have only just had time to watch VOTD, let alone sparkly christmas DVDs or tinkly old westerns.

Don't wait for me though - I'll catch up at some point

Just a quick point about the Searchers - I think the 'big deal' that lots of film buffs make is that its the first time that JW is playing an unpleasant character, in that his attitude to the Injuns is probably the same as in all his earlier westerns, but that American values had shifted to a point where such blatant racism was seen as unacceptable.

[Ralph]

Now, hold your horses there stranger. Some of us have only just had time to watch VOTD, let alone sparkly christmas DVDs or tinkly old westerns.

Don't wait for me though - I'll catch up at some point

Howdy Pardner, good to see you riding back there, you can join us and pull up a bar stool at one of the many Saloons along the trail

[Wayne]

Jon, i've got 'Tin Star', 'Warlock', 'The Searchers', & 'The Horse Soldiers' going begging if you want them? And there may yet be more. So far, 'Rio Bravo' is the only one i'm planning on keeping.

[Ralph]

Jon, i've got 'Tin Star', 'Warlock', 'The Searchers', & 'The Horse Soldiers' going begging if you want them? And there may yet be more. So far, 'Rio Bravo' is the only one i'm planning on keeping.

Jon - I think you'll definitely like Warlock

[Wayne]

Not that he's trying to influence you or anything.

[MacNimon]

It's years since I watched it, but I remember that last time round I really enjoyed The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Of course just because I thought that it was a good film in 1985 (or whatever) doesn't mean that I'll think the same today. But even so, I was surprised to see how low Ralph rated this. What I do remember though is being surprised that it was made in b&w, what with it being made in the sixties...I'll have to search through my video collection now to see whether Ralph has been a tad harsh on this, or whether my memory is cheating.

[Ralph]

It's years since I watched it, but I remember that last time round I really enjoyed The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Of course just because I thought that it was a good film in 1985 (or whatever) doesn't mean that I'll think the same today. But even so, I was surprised to see how low Ralph rated this. What I do remember though is being surprised that it was made in b&w, what with it being made in the sixties...I'll have to search through my video collection now to see whether Ralph has been a tad harsh on this, or whether my memory is cheating.

I wish I was being harsh I can lend you my copy if your vid evades you

[Wayne]

The Alamo (1960)

I’ve seen this on TV a few times in the past but then as now it fails to hold my attention properly and I find myself with it on in the background.

I know what you mean. I'm half way through & have logged on-line whilst it plays out.......