The Jazz Thread

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

I thought it was time to re-introduce this thread to the MUSIC forum. It may only be a few of us that ever post on here, but what the heck - there's too much pop on here anyway

I'm going to start with some bad news which most jazz fans are already aware of....

RIP the legend that was Oscar Peterson. A true one-off - there will never be another like him again.
I know that Ant Cox in particular would have been upset by this news as he was probably his number one fan.
Oscar was a very special pianist -although maybe not eveyone's taste. He was a true genius. I couldn't even think of the some of his piano runs let alone be able to try and reproduce them. I'm not sure whether linking to other websites is alowed on PS but if you put the following into your internet address bar it will take you to a site dedicated to Oscar's memory.
http://www.respectance.com/OscarPeterson/

I'll try and post happier news next time!!!!

[Antony Cox]

What can I say?

I was devastated to hear this news, even if I had heard that Oscar had been ill for a while. If anyone wants to read my in depth thoughts on the man, his music and it’s effect on me, click on the following link.

http://www.thevervoid.com/columns/antcox/antcox01.htm

Suffice to say that my taste in jazz may well have turned out to be a lot different had it not been for Oscar Peterson, and his music will live on forever, as will his indelible mark on my life.

[Wayne]

Yes i saw it on the news that whilst at my Mum & Dad's over christmas. I've always said that the word 'genius' is far too easily bandied about, even when talking about some of the great Jazz legends, but Oscar Peterson was most likely one of the elite few that deserve the word. He was an incredible technician & improviser.

On a happier note, it's nice to see this thread back, & even nicer to see Andrew here. Hope you're getting more & more better mate! I must try texting you again sometime soon.
I was naturally pleased to hear that you enjoyed the Bireli Lagrene CD that i sent.
I think i mentioned that the pianist Maurice Vander, played on some on Django's 'bop' influenced recordings that he made shortly before his death. 50+ years later, & he's certainly giving Bireli Lagrene a run for his money.
I recall you mentioned that you didn't particularly like 'A Foggy Day'. Is that partly because it's so up-tempo? It's more often played as a ballad i think. I must admit i like it myself. The bass playing alone is

On another jazz note, (nice!) I played a gig on Friday with this astounding young jazz violinist called Ben Holder. He's only 18, & is currently at Birmingham Conservatoire doing studying jazz.
In a funny kinda way, i was pleased to hear him complain that the course is too 'modern jazz' oriented, with not enough attention paid to the 'old hands'. He didn't go into detail, but he is obviously very much influenced by Grappelli, & really likes his more mainstream, post Hot Club stuff. Can't say i blame him either! I was watching the 'Stephane Grappelli in New Orleans' DVD the other night, & it swings like ****! Martin Taylor is on guitar, still young enough to have short hair, & Grappelli would be about 70 at that point, & he's awesome!
Anyway, this young lad Ben is a real natural talent. His technique & grasp of harmony at such a young makes me sick! I keep thinking: 'Bah! If only i'd got into this stuff when i was a teenager, instead of wasting 11yrs playing rock! He was just so fast & slick, but you know sometimes when you play with someone who's really good, it sometimes makes you rise to the challege, & we ended up sparking off each other pretty well & he complimented me at the end of the night, which was nice.
Shame in a way that it was only a dep job. I was filling in for their regular guitarist who was in Spain. It made me realize how lazy i'd got at reading chords, (because i learn everything in my head) because i was presented with a tune i'd never played before,- 'A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square', (in Eb ) & the chords were written really small, & with loads of changes in the bar. All i can say is that i'm glad the rhythm guitarist knew it! Thank God it was only a ballad! I was all over place!
Anyway, enough of my ramblings! Nice to see the Jazz Thread (& Andrew) back.

[Antony Cox]

Wow, that sound's great, Wayne!

I'm going to sound very old now, but it's nice to see some of the younger generation warming to jazz and wanting to play it, especially when they have such talent as it sounds like this young lad has!

I remember when the older generation were saying that to me 20 years ago (though maybe not the talent bit... ).

One of these days I must get up to Nottingham and see you playing somewhere! :wayne

[Wayne]

Hi Ant,
I agree! There are a few good youngsters about on the jazz scene, but not enough. And of course, youngsters in jazz terms means under 60, so Ben is postively embryonic.

One of these days I must get up to Nottingham and see you playing somewhere! :wayne

Well that would be great! Though Jan & Feb are pretty dead. But you must come & sit in if & when it happens!

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

If I'm well and mobile when Ant pops up then I'd be up for a trip to Nottingham too - gigs permiting, off course

[Wayne]

Even better!
I really hope you get back to full health asap Andrew!

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

Thanks Wayne, I hope so too. Having things permanently attacted to me is starting to get me down a bit.

Back to jazz and that Bireli CD - I love all the other tracks, in particular 'Witchcraft', 'My kind of Town' and 'April in Paris' (especially for mimicking the Count Basie arrangement at the start and end).
With 'A Foggy Day' is just seems a bit dis-jointed to me - yes it's fast but it seems a bit messy - not just Birelli but all the musicians are craming as much in as possible and I find it difficult to listen to. Thankfully it's followed by Witchcraft which is so good. I must do Ant a copy of it - he likes this kind of thing you know.

[Carol Baynes]

Wayne's mention of Stephane Grapelli reminds me of the Irivng Berlin song that I've got ("Cheek to cheek", from the 1935 film "Top Hat" no less- Fred and Ginger's finest hour). I like it!
That got me thinking about how much really old stuff I've got. Has anyone heard the 1927 recording of "Rhapsody in blue" by Paul Whiteman and his orchestra with Gershwin on piano? Sublime! I've also got Whiteman's contemporary version of either "The Black Bottom" or "Charleston"...forgotten which.

Also, Wayne, you'll be pleased to hear that my Dad passed on a load of C90 tapes with Django Reinhardt on them. He was going to bin them, until I spotted who was on them! He inherited a box of cassettes from a jazz club colleague who'd passed away.

Haven't had a listen yet though!

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

Those tapes will definately be worth a listen Carol - You never know there may be some stuff on them that Wayne doesn't yet have (if that's actually possible).

Wayne's on his way round to yours now to steel them from you!!!!

[Wayne]

Those tapes will definately be worth a listen Carol - You never know there may be some stuff on them that Wayne doesn't yet have (if that's actually possible).

Wayne's on his way round to yours now to steel them from you!!!!

@Andrew

I have the complete chronological set of 20 double CD's which cover every Django Reinhardt recording known to man, from his first recording in 1928 aged 18, (just before the caravan fire) to his last in 1953 just before he died aged 43. He was quite prolific! The early recordings are mainly backing accordian players in Paris on the six string banjo, & have no real jazz value, but are interesting.

Hope you enjoy some the stuff on the tapes Carol.
There's a clip of Django with Stephane Grappelli & the Hot Club Quintet filmed in 1938 whilst on tour in England, which you can see on YouTube.
Sadly, there are only a very few fragments of film of Django known to be in existence, & this is the only complete track, called J'attendrai. You can clearly see Django's damaged right hand which was badly burned in a caravan fire when he was 18, after he had only made about half a dozen recordings.
He played all his guitar solos with only two fingers!

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

Excellent clip Wayne!!!!!

[Wayne]

Jazz Alert!

(Particularly for Ant Cox!)

Nearly 3 hours of Oscar Peterson as part of a Jazz themed night on BBC4 on Friday February 1st!

[Antony Cox]

Oooh, thanks for the heads up, Wayne! I was hoping there'd be something on TV soon!

[Wayne]

I completely forgot about it.

I blame the never ending supply of horror films!

[Antony Cox]

So did I!

[Wayne]

We're useless aren't we!

[Antony Cox]

As you can imagine, I'm really bloody pi**ed off about it, so I would say I'm rather more than useless.....

[SiHart]

As it was on BBC4, there's a chance or 5 that it might be repeated in the near future.

Si xx

[Wayne]

If anyone wants to read my in depth thoughts on the man, his music and it’s effect on me, click on the following link.

http://www.thevervoid.com/columns/antcox/antcox01.htm

I've been meaning to read this for a few weeks, & have only just gotten around it, but it was very enjoyable to read your personal insight into Oscar Peterson.

although I may offer the slightly more long winded description of virtuoso as someone who can do just about anything that can be done with a musical instrument and even a few things that you thought couldn’t be done.
I was trying to think of some contemporary musicians who, as far as I’m aware, are or were virtuosos on their instruments. I’m thinking here of the likes of Marc Knopfler, Eric Clapton, and Jimi Hendrix, though the fact that they are/were all guitarists is coincidental.

Although i would debate the comparisons made with those guitarists, with a view to your description of a 'virtuoso'. I myself am big fan of Hendrix. He was a true innovator, the grandaddy of rock guitar even, & a genuinely talented improviser, but a virtuoso? No. And Clapton certainly isn't.
I do think though that it's very difficult to make a comparison with someone of the musical stature of Oscar Peterson, with anyone in the field of rock music. And i speak as someone who studied & played rock guitar for 11yrs or so before coming to jazz, & perhaps more importantly, as someone who still enjoys listening to the great rock guitarists & music. IMHO, there's no comparison. Even my favourite players in rock music, as much as i rate them within their field, I can't think of anyone who would genuinely fit your description of a virtuoso.
Anyway, talking of virtuoso's, & bringing the thread back to jazz, i thought i'd share for anyone who may be interested & has nothing better to do, an article i wrote about 12yrs ago, covering the lesser known, latter period of the musical career of Django Reinhardt.

http://www.hotclub.co.uk/html/lost.html

[Antony Cox]

That's a very interesting article, Wayne. A question for you, though - is Birelli Legrane a better guitarist than Django?

As for my reference to Eric Clapton, unfortunately I was making a rather sweeping assumption based on hearsay and misinformation - basically a bit of a guess! I suppose I was just trying to put OP's virtuosity in a contemporary context which anyone reading the article who wasn't necessarily into Jazz may be able to relate to.

[Wayne]

As for my reference to Eric Clapton, unfortunately I was making a rather sweeping assumption based on hearsay and misinformation - basically a bit of a guess! I suppose I was just trying to put OP's virtuosity in a contemporary context which anyone reading the article who wasn't necessarily into Jazz may be able to relate to.

Totally fair enough.

That's a very interesting article, Wayne. A question for you, though - is Bireli Lagrene a better guitarist than Django?

Yes and No.
It's a very difficult one! It's a bit like comparing Art Tatum to Oscar Peterson. Bireli is probably my personal favourite, but he has the advantage of a few decades worth of music with which to be be influenced by. Bireli was a child prodigy who was playing his own take on Django Reinhardt style, with completely original solos by the time he was 13! Over the years, he's gone through the lot - from gypsy/jazz, to Be-Bop, to Fusion, & Mainstream. He's the most mind bogglingly amazing musician who's been declared a genius by musicians such as Martin Taylor & Jaco Pastorious, (who recruited Bireli when he was just 18 on his first tour of the USA)
But in spite of everything, is he a true innovator? As an improviser, certainly. He does things i've never heard anyone else do, & i've heard a lot! But he didn't single handedly create a whole genre. Django's influence was so massive, that he actually acheived that. And unlike Bireli, who as good as he is, still occasionaly makes mistakes, or simply plays things that don't sound very good. (To my ears anyway) But Django seemed incapable of making a mistake, or playing anything that was unsuitable in anyway. Seemingly everything he recorded was just musical perfection. That's not to say that he worked out what he was gonna play. Quite the opposite! There are in existance examples of multiple takes from recording sessions which for some technical reason (like one where Grappelli's violin bow clunks into the microphone) had to be recorded again. Grappelli's solos, whilst not identical, would contain very similar ideas, but Django's improvations were totally different everytime. There's a famous example, where they didn't have a 'b' side for a take, & it was suggested out of the blue that Django record a solo guitar piece, which he did off the cuff, & was simply titled 'Improvisaton'. The great thing about this piece, apart from it's obvious technical brilliance, is that it doesn't sound like someone (however good) just rambling around on the guitar for 3 minutes to fill in time. It actually sounds like a fully thought out composition. Totally musical, like a Beethoven piano sonata or something, would.
Another example is the famous meeting with Segovia at a high society party in Paris. Django was playing, & the grandaddy of the classical guitar comes up to him & says 'Where can i get the music for that piece?' Django laughed, & said 'You can't, because i just made it up'. Also you have to remember his physical disabilty. Few musicians could acheive what he acheived even with full use of all their fingers. Django was a true genius.
So who's best? History says it has to Django really. But Bireli has so many more influences to draw on, & he's recorded many different that reflect a versatility beyond Django Reinhardt style. But perhaps the reason he's my favourite is because he's still around. He records quite prolifically, & it's very exciting to hear 'What's he gonna do on this latest CD', that kind of thing. He's gone beyond Django, & he never was a copyist from day one. His improvastions on his first album at the age of 13 are totally his own.

Hey.... i'm gonna go round in circles forever here! You've made the fatal mistake of asking me a question about Django Reinhardt. Something which i'm extremely passionate about.
Ok, final judgement. (if that's possible) Bireli is my favourite. He's just so breathtakingly exciting, & to get back to where this came from, he's absolutely, unquestionably a virtuoso, at the very least! But ultimately, Django Reinhardt was a genius. And you only get a few of those come along every century.

[Antony Cox]

Well I was hoping for a more in-depth answer than that...

Fair do's I suppose. Again I was assuming (in my ignorance) that they were similar in terms of style, but you're right of course in that one was the innovator and the other isn't necessarily, but again he's had more to influence him.

All very interesting, though.

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

I'm back folks!!!

I can watch that Birelli DVD - you know, the one that goes on for hours and has about 50 musicians on it - about 100 times and never get bored of it!!!
That reminds me, I must do Ant a copy of that Birelli CD (Blue Eyes) that Wayne did for me.
Ant will like it as apart from hearing another version of Birelli (i.e. kind of playing as himself rather than Django-ish) and on electric guitar rather than accoustic, it's just a wondeful trio that Birelli is with and is the kind of thing that Ant listens too.
My dad, who loves the Django style Birelli and constantly watches that DVD in his office at work, will probably find the 'Blue Eyes' CD rather boring as he's not really into piano trios and the like - in fact he finds Oscar Peterson trio recordings to be 'unlistenable' after a while.
Personally I love both the Birelli DVD and Blues Eyes Cd

Wayne's answer to Ant's "who do you prefer" question was interesting as I'd often thought of asking Wayne the same thing.

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

I've now finally done Ant a copy of the Blue Eyes CD, so we can expect a full review any day now!!!!