Tom after season 18- killing off his Doctor forever?

[Carol Baynes]

Tom Baker's attitude to Dr. Who may have changed a lot over the last 15 years, but in the 1980s he became almost estranged from the role that made him famous. It was as if the fourth Doctor would never been seen again.

I was thinking about this yesterday for one reason or another- famously Tom Baker never appeared in "The Five Doctors" and I have a theory as to why. I do think Tom (in his own weird way) genuinely didn't want to 'spoil' his tenure as The Doctor and dissapoint the fans. To him the party was over and it was wrong to go back to his glory days and sell the public a shoddy version of what they had loved. Let me explain...

The first time I saw Tom on television after "Logopolis" in 1981 was "Jackanory" in either 1983 or '84, and I was surprised at how he had physically changed so much. His hair was very short and grey and he looked skinny and guant. He did not, to be blunt, look like the fourth Doctor I had grown up with. In comparison, Jon Pertwee always looked like The Doctor and never physically changed a vast deal from his days in the programme, and also appeared to readily embrace the role.
My memories of Tom presenting that "Jackanory" story (Ted Hughes' "The Iron Man") stayed with me for many years, because it said to me that Tom's Doctor was truly dead and the actor would never return to the role. For many years it seemed I was right. Because of that, Tom remained as much an enigma as The Doctor for many years after, as his involvement in Dr. Who was kept at a minimum, maybe for similar reasons to turning down "The Five Doctors". Also, his TV appearances were far less.
I also believe that if Tom had appeared in "The Five Dcotors" we would have seen his season 18 burgundy 'uniform' and not any look he may have previously adopted (with multi-coloured scarf in evidence), but that's just an extra thought. He would have had to be John Nathan-Turner's vision, and I don't think he'd have liked that either.

Because he was so iconic a Doctor, and stayed with the role for such a long time, it always fascinates me whether Tom found it hard to handle the change to his own life. He has kept relatively quiet over the years, although he has said the odd word on the matter, most notably in his auto-biography.

I don't think his apparant eagerness to distance himself from the role endeared him to the other Doctors either. I might be way off the mark here, but I always got the feeling that there was dissaproval from Jon Pertwee (which would make sense, given Jon's eagerness to don the velvet jackets and entertain the kids, especially if it was a good cause). He could be forgiven for thinking Tom was a miserable shit for not mucking in and joining the party. Maybe?? But that's always fascinated me- Jon never seemed to hold Tom in high esteem. It's not necesarally anything he said, it was more what he never did...just little things...again, I might be way off the mark there.Tom, on the other hand, probably couldn't care less what they all thought of him., Jon came across as a much prouder man in that sense- the respect of his colleagues seemed to mean a lot to him, and visa versa.


So...er...a lot of random (but connected) points there. Tom is a fascinating man, and I'm sure leaving Doctor Who was a huge wrench for him, which changed his life almost as much as getting the part in the first place. Perhaps all this goes some way to explaining why he didn't return to the role for many years (and even then on his own terms, such as the brief cameo in "Dimensions in time" or the advertisements in New Zealand). Also, as I said, perhaps his physical change was a factor, and perhaps partly intentional (such as shaving off his curly hair) and this further removed him from the role, to the extent where kids like me didn't recognise him as The Doctor anymore.

Tom has never appeared on screen with the other Doctors has he (as in the same scene)? Is there a reason for this? Wasn't the propsed "Dark dimesion" story meant to be just about his Doctor, and isn't it interesting how Tom would have been the 'star' with no other Doctors present?

So...any thoughts?



Interesting breakfast TV appearance from 1984-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnhdgWwt4ao

[Si Hunt]

Tom's carved out a reputation for himself as one of our fondest treasures since he became the Doctor, being elusive, often aloof, usually eccentric.

In some ways I think he's been right. When someone gives in and goes back, whether it be a band reuniting or an old actor returning to past glories, inevitably we will turn round and say "it's not the same". But then, we have the performance or album on our shelf and we forget the sheer thrill of having him/it/them back again. It's easy when you've had the treat to say "it would have been better if they'd left well alone".

So while Tom has his integrity, and has always left us wondering how marvellous it would be to see our dear lost Fourth Doctor again, we should probably still bear in mind that if he had of strode into the Dark Tower in 1983, or been snatched by that evil obelisk... well, it would have still been fantastic wouldn't it?

Si.

[WhiteCrow]

I always thought Tom followed Doctor Who doing a show called the Book Tower and not Jackanory.

Some interesting points though.

Thinking about it though, it seems many of the actors who played the Doctor can be described as eccentric, were they eccentric before they were cast, or did the role send them that way?

Certainly Tom comes over as the king of the eccentric Doctors. I've always thought his refusal to return to the role is just to avoid being pigeon holed in the role, and be offered other things. I seem to remember him doing a mad turn as a letcherous Monk in the She-Devil, something he'd have difficulty being cast in unless he'd stepped away from the kids TV icon role.

[Captain Tancredi]

I can't believe you never watched 'The Hound of the Baskervilles' or 'The Book Tower', Carol!

Seriously, though, I think the thing with Tom Baker was that he spent about ten years trying not to be the Fourth Doctor and then, barring one or two character roles, found about 10-15 years ago that he started being offered work because the people who'd grown up with his Doctor started making television themselves. 'Little Britain' is a classic example, and as far as I can tell 'Randall and Hopkirk' was in the same vein, particularly as in the later episodes they seemed to be basically paying Tom just to be himself and ramble on eccentrically. The comparison with Jon Pertwee is an interesting one- Pertwee being rather more of a showbiz personality in his own right and the sort to turn up on panel games and 'Give Us A Clue' when he wasn't acting, and perhaps Tom in some way felt that somebody should have been offering him the same kind of visibility in the 1980s.

It's also possible (if not quite likely) that Tom burned a few bridges with influential people in the BBC- people like Paddy Russell and Alan Bromly (to name two directors who are generally known to have had rough rides with him) were experienced and respected professionals away from 'Doctor Who' and producers and directors may have thought twice about offering him work if he had a reputation for sometimes being "difficult". Tom's acting style may well also have worked against him- at times it's like nothing so much as watching Eric Morecambe because he can't not be the centre of attention in a scene and particularly in his later episodes uses other actors' responses to feed his own performance. I think it's a sense of responsibility at the end of the day- that as the star of the show he felt responsible for making it engaging viewing, and if the script was particularly poor and the sets cheap and uninspired, it was down to him to keep people watching.

[Carol Baynes]

So while Tom has his integrity, and has always left us wondering how marvellous it would be to see our dear lost Fourth Doctor again, we should probably still bear in mind that if he had of strode into the Dark Tower in 1983, or been snatched by that evil obelisk... well, it would have still been fantastic wouldn't it?

Si.

Oh it would have been great, wouldn't it? Sadly, however....

I always thought Tom followed Doctor Who doing a show called the Book Tower and not Jackanory.

"The book tower" was in production while he was still in "Doctor Who", I believe. His "Jackanory" appearance is as I've said...

[Carol Baynes]

I can't believe you never watched 'The Hound of the Baskervilles' or 'The Book Tower', Carol!
.

I've seen "The book tower" way back when, but although I remember the trailers I didn't actually see "The hound of the baskervilles", that is true.

[Andrew Curnow]

Interesting thread. I don't know that I've anything particularly insightful to add, but I'll ramble on a bit anyway no doubt!

I think there's probably a difference between Tom leaving the role, and Jon doing so. Jon Pertwee was quite a 'name' before doing Who, and by all accounts still did some other work during his time on the show. Also, I think I'm right in saying that at least one reason he left was because he was worried being associated too completely with Who would damage his chances of getting other work. So he left, went straight into Whodunnit? and from there to Wurzel.

Conversely, Tom took on the role as almost a complete unknown, and although he did some other work during his time on the show (most notable The Book Tower) he mainly spent all his time 'being' the Doctor. Just remember how shocking it was to see that picture in the DWM special a few years back, of a late-70s Tom with fag and beerglass in hand - because he'd done such a superb job of hiding that reality at the time, it seemed such an unreal picture. And when he left, it wasn't primarily a fear of typecasting, it was partly because he wasn't getting on with the production team, and partly because he'd done everything he felt he could with the part ("there's nothing left but repetition" is I believe what he said). So in that sense it was almost a sense of protecting the role of the Doctor that made him leave.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that he thinks he IS the Doctor, but I do think he took on the role to a greater degree than any of the other actors (either before or since) with the possible exception of Hartnell. When Billy left, I don't think he liked to watch the programme, because it made him unhappy. Similarly, I think Tom wouldn't have wanted to do The Five Doctors because he'd only just left the role (less than three years) and I think part of him at least would have been upset about not being THE Doctor.

I think that amongst the many things for which JN-T doesn't get enough credit, is his bringing Tom back into the fold. He got him to do the Tom Baker Years, and then Shada, and although part of that might have been to do with the natural passage of time (plus Tom was a regular on ITV's Medics at that point, so the typecasting/lack of work thing would seem to have passed) I don't think it would have been an easy job to persuade Tom back. He also got Tom involved in 1993 with Dimensions in Time, even got him back into the costume.

There you go - I said I'd ramble!!

[Lissa]

Tom Baker's version of "Hound of the Baskervilles" is pretty much top of my obscure TV wish list and one day some kind soul will put it on a tracker and it will be mine. I think I might technically collect versions of Hound of the Baskervilles. Who knew, I have a hobby by accident.

I don't think we can or will ever understand what makes Tom Baker tick. Certainly Doctor Who was a happy time for him - at least the first six years were - and his reluctance to do anything connected with the series for so long may just have been that the people who made it such a happy time were all gone. Estranged, dead or just working elsewhere.

I'm just glad he's willing to talk about it now in documentaries and on commentaries. For all Jon Pertwee's appearances at conventions and so on, there is precious little recorded about his time on Dr Who. There's a tape of his one man show and his Myth Makers along with some convention footage but that's only a fraction of what we'd have if he was still with us.

Tom Baker makes people ramble - this is now a fact with evidence and everything - and I've forgotten what the question was. He left Doctor Who, he shunned everything to do with it for years. Just like McGann did, just like Eccleston is doing. But Tom's Tom and they aren't. He's just so much more fun to ramble about.

[Carol Baynes]

Tom Baker's version of "Hound of the Baskervilles" is pretty much top of my obscure TV wish list and one day some kind soul will put it on a tracker and it will be mine. I think I might technically collect versions of Hound of the Baskervilles. Who knew, I have a hobby by accident.

I'd be really intrigued to see it too. I'm wondering if it was actually all that good, as it gets ignored a little bit when it comes to discussing the adaptations of that book. I would have loved Tom to make a go at a Holmes TV series, but then again maybe he wasn't as good as I think he'd be in the role.

I'm just glad he's willing to talk about it now in documentaries and on commentaries. For all Jon Pertwee's appearances at conventions and so on, there is precious little recorded about his time on Dr Who. There's a tape of his one man show and his Myth Makers along with some convention footage but that's only a fraction of what we'd have if he was still with us.

Tom Baker makes people ramble - this is now a fact with evidence and everything - and I've forgotten what the question was. He left Doctor Who, he shunned everything to do with it for years. Just like McGann did, just like Eccleston is doing. But Tom's Tom and they aren't. He's just so much more fun to ramble about.

I forget that there's probably far less input from Jon now. Although it always feels like he did a lot more in that respect. For example I can't imagine Tom doing a documentary like "Return to Devil's end"...I don't know, maybe he could have done "Return to Paris" or something...
I get what you're saying about McGann and Eccleston as well, but I don't think type casting was as much of a danger for those two as it was for Tom. McGann seemed happy enough to continue associating with the show, albeit in a small way.


I'd still love to know what Jon Pertwee thought of Tom Baker though!

[Andrew Curnow]

I'd still love to know what Jon Pertwee thought of Tom Baker though!

I suspect that being called a tall lightbulb may not have gone down well...

Slightly tangential, but I always find it a surprise that nobody on the set of Planet of the Spiders (and again, nobody on the set of The Tenth Planet) had the idea of taking a photo with the two Doctor actors together. Maybe the outgoing actors weren't all that pleased about being replaced and wouldn't have done it, but it still seems a missed, blindingly-obvious photo opportunity to me.

[Pip Madeley]

I always find it a surprise that nobody on the set of Planet of the Spiders (and again, nobody on the set of The Tenth Planet) had the idea of taking a photo with the two Doctor actors together.

To be fair, the same goes for Logopolis and Caves Of Androzani, I've never photos of Tom/Peter and Peter/Colin together from that shoot, and they're never in the same shot in the surviving studio footage.

[Andrew Curnow]

That's true!

[Carol Baynes]

To be fair, the same goes for Logopolis and Caves Of Androzani, I've never photos of Tom/Peter and Peter/Colin together from that shoot, and they're never in the same shot in the surviving studio footage.

Yes, now you mention it!....
Tom always seemed quite pleased with the choice of Peter as his sucessor, although in a "I would never have thought of him in a million years" kind of way. He was concerned kids wouldn't be able to think of Peter as The Doctor as he was already in their minds as a country vet.

[Lord President]

I'd be really intrigued to see it too. I'm wondering if it was actually all that good, as it gets ignored a little bit when it comes to discussing the adaptations of that book. I would have loved Tom to make a go at a Holmes TV series, but then again maybe he wasn't as good as I think he'd be in the role.

Tom's portrayal of Holmes in HotB is generally considered one of the worst pieces of casting in television history. If my memory serves me well, it was a dire piece of opportunist crap. 'Let's take one of TV's best loved actors and get him to play one of literature's best loved characters, we can't go wrong!' Oh yes you can!!

That said, it can't be as bad as the more recent Richard Roxburgh version, with Richard E Grant as Stapleton, that was the biggest pile of pants I've seen in ages!!!!

However, I too would love to have the TB version of HotB in my DVD collection, purely for the nostalgia value of it!

[Perry Vale]

So while Tom has his integrity, and has always left us wondering how marvellous it would be to see our dear lost Fourth Doctor again...

I know people like to forget it, but wan't he in Dimensions In Time?

[Logo Polish]

Yes.

[Pip Madeley]

Some of us are all too aware of that fact.

[Captain Tancredi]

Tom's portrayal of Holmes in HotB is generally considered one of the worst pieces of casting in television history.

But in theory it should have been perfect- who better to play a brilliant but moody, eccentric and abrasive character than somebody who'd spent the previous seven years doing just that? Particularly only five years after Tom had donned the deerstalker and cape himself, so the idea was probably subliminal at some point in the BBC anyway.

I don't think I've seen it since it was repeated, but perhaps part of the problem was that if anything Holmes wasn't far enough away from Tom's Doctor to be either a challenge or rewarding from an acting point of view.

[Andrew Curnow]

And a mere seven-nearly-eight years later, Tom's Sherlock is available for £1.89 an episode: https://store.bbc.com/hound-of-the-baskervilles

Not to mention, we've had a lot more of Tom since this thread than we would have expected at the time. Mrs Wibbsy, Big Finish, and The Curator....

[Wayne]

That was a surprise seeing Carol's name again! I thought for a split-second there.....

[MacNimon]

So did I!!!

Which makes me think, though...maybe the time is ripe to go an a bit of a recruitment drive, to see if any of the old regulars can be tempted back into the fold...

All I can say is that, going off on a bit of a tangent, the PS November Meet still seems to be a very popular event which we all love attending and hope goes on for a very long time. Why doesn't the PS forum seem to be as popular as it once was? I know that the question has been asked before with no obvious answer coming forth...but still...

[Rob McCow]

I think all of these internet forums have suffered to an extent. Facebook and Twitter kind of distract the attention between them.

Basically, I think you have to put a little more effort into a post on a forum. With the other social meejah you can just spit something out.

We've sort of tried recruiting in the past, but it never seems to get that many extra people. The best people to get on it are friends you already know! And most of our friends are already here.

[duncan]

I always found recruitment for my own forum very tough. I used to advertise in the free announcement section of SFX magazine. It got me half a dozen new members but only one or two stuck around.

I am currently emailing old members to try and tempt them back. One has returned, which is good. Have you tried newsletters? Letting everyone on the mailing list know what's happening on the forum may tempt some of them back even if it only serves as a reminder that the forum is still going. I don't recall anything from PS in my inbox recently.

[Stuart Wallis]

I think we did have newsletters once upon a time, didn't we? And are we still sending birthday greetings to everyone who hasn't been around for awhile? If we've got everyone's email addresses still, maybe a "hi, how are you? PS is still around if you're interested" might help? I can think of at least a couple of old posters (Carol and Shada Pavlova) who were going through rough patches when we last heard from them, and I wonder how they're getting on to this day.