Si Hunt Bellows - "Is Prostitution Wrong?"

[Si Hunt]

Patrick, Pete and Mark have some things in common.

They are all successful, professional men, who work long hours and have to travel away from home. But what really unites them is that they all use prostitutes and are utterly unashamed about it.

Patrick, an IT worker in his 50s, dislikes the coverage of the issue. He dislikes the pieces written by feminists like Julie Bindel in the Guardian, who describes prostitution as "abuse". Patrick also dislikes the tabloids.

Some facts:

Nearly one in 10 men pay for sex.
Men aged between 25 and 34 are most likely to use prostitutes.
Men who pay for sex are most likely to be single.
In UK brothels 85% of prostitutes are from overseas

"Take the Sun newspaper, they sell sex but as soon as they find someone being caught out with a prostitute, there's double standards." reckons Patrick.

"I've been totally monogamous in my life, with one partner. I wanted to know what is it like to have sex with somebody who isn't your partner."

After his first encounter, in an Edinburgh sauna, Patrick felt happy.

"I was quite elated afterwards. From the sexual side, which was better physically than what I would normally get at home, and also the conversation with the woman."

He does not appear to have a problem leading a double life with his partner.
"She doesn't know. I don't believe it's changed my relationship with her in any way. To some extent I feel closer to her.

"I don't have to demand things that maybe I was demanding from her, like oral sex and things like that. She didn't like doing that. Now I no longer have to ask."

Management consultant Pete, 40, from Oxfordshire, is blunt about his motivation for buying sex.

"I've not had sex with my wife for at least five years," he says. "In simple terms, it's how I get sex. I've not noticed a change in our relationship at all.

"There is no emotional involvement [with the prostitutes]. At the risk of sounding cruel and heartless I don't think I do have a moral issue with it. If I did I wouldn't have done it."

Having visited prostitutes for 18 months, Pete says he was attracted while surfing on the internet.

"I've been leading up to it; using pornography and looking at various websites. Rather than being a fantasy it was someone you could have sex with."

Mark says he used to spend a lot of time trying to pick women up in clubs and bars. Now the 31-year-old business consultant from London doesn't have the time.

"It is a mixture of the convenience and the time aspect. I work very, very long hours."

He recognises there is a stigma, but it is one he utterly rejects.

"Some of my friends are fully aware that I visit prostitutes. Many of them do themselves. There is this fear that it is in some way abusive. I would disagree with the idea that nobody chooses to do it for a living."

Patrick views it as a totally mundane transaction between adults.

"I see us as adults I want to pay and someone wants to sell. As long as I'm not hurting them in any way what harm am I doing. I'm distributing my wealth to people who don't have it."

Patrick, Mark and Pete say they only use parlours or escorts.

The trio all use a website where "punters" - the men who visit prostitutes - go to discuss their encounters. On these message boards the implication is that there are two classes of punter.

Pete suggests the world of street prostitution is "probably the grubbiest, grimiest bit". Patrick says he is not tempted, saying it is "risky and not comfortable". Mark's view is also revealing: "There is a slightly exploitative element to street prostitution."

Instead, the men speak of forming friendships with the women in the parlours and saunas.

"There's always a lot of girls that I know," says Patrick. "We have a good camaraderie. I treat them as my friends and I feel to some extent they confide and talk to me."

Mark says he enjoys similar friendships.

"They seem to enjoy my company, several have moved onto more of a friendship aspect. There are a couple who have phoned me for advice on tax matters."

It's one of the oldest trades. It's seen variously as something peverse, and just another profession. But what do YOU think about it? Is it true that it should be legalised, becuase "it exists, therefore we may we well make it safer for the women"? Is it, as one of the gents above notes, hurting nobody? Because the punters want to buy and the girls want to sell?

Some great excuses up there by the way ("the girls want my advice", "it's actually kinder on my wife cos she doesn't have to give me oral sex anymore" etc.) but on a serious note, where do you stand on this issue? Is it wrong or right and should it be legal?

And have you ever, or would you ever, pay for sex?

We shall not judge.

Si.

[Dirk Gently]

This is a tricky & emotive issue. I personally would legalise it. Holland have legal sex workers & police it quite well, but they also have their fair share of problems. Legal brothels will always be more expensive but safer.

I've never been to a prostitute & hopefully will never have the need but I don't see any reason why other people shouldn't buy & sell sex if that's what they want to do.
But I do have a BIG problem with people being trafficked in to this country for the express reason of exploitation. Bringing 13/14/15/16 year olds here to satisfy perverts who want sex with minors is horrific & the bastards who do it should be jailed &/or deported. We don't need them.

The sex industry in the U.S is policed quite well these days. All those involved in making movies have to be screened & tested every couple of months & provide a valid certificate to prove they are clean of infection before they can get work. If & when they have contracted something then they go on a database which all legal movie companies have access to & only come off if infection has been proved to be zero.
A similar thing could be done with legalised prostitution, a database of legal prostitutes & their status could be set up & a licence scheme would pay for its up upkeep.

Life isn't perfect & prostitution will always be here whether you like it or not. We might as well make the best of it.


As for the 1 in 10 going to a prostitute, I wonder who's been to one on Planet Skaro?

[WhiteCrow]

As for the 1 in 10 going to a prostitute, I wonder who's been to one on Planet Skaro?

I used to live on Grove Street in Liverpool which I soon found out was the middle of the Prossie pick up point.

Let's put this straight, Julia Roberts none of them were. Scarey very wasted, very aggressive women, dressed often in clothes which were probably sent back from some African appeal for not being good enough, who all looked much older than they should. Supposedly most had a drug habit of some kind they were trying to fund.

So of course every day on the way home I'd say to myself "oh I'd like me a piece of that".

The grim reality of prostitution is a world away from the glamour covered on TV or in film.

Bottom line though I don't like the idea of paying for sex. So I got married instead ... ooops ...

[Dirk Gently]

Bottom line though I don't like the idea of paying for sex. So I got married instead ... ooops ...

And never stop paying for it. And when you get it it works out to be bloody expensive!

[Captain Tancredi]

I have a single colleague in his forties who goes to Amsterdam several times a year and buys himself a hooker- he's quite open about it and nobody at work seems to have a problem with it. Personally I don't think I'd ever want to see a prostitute because it's more important to me to feel loved than to just get laid, but I don't have a problem provided that both parties involved know what they're doing and have a choice. It's very easy to say that the clients just want sex for its own sake, but I can envisage a situation where a couple who have a good strong relationship just aren't completely sexually compatible and one partner will have a yearning for something that their partner doesn't want to do, but a prostitute may offer for a price.

[Pip Madeley]

Personally, I think it is wrong. It's dangerous and it creates crime. - there's risk of disease (spreading STDs, aids etc), rape, death, emotional damage... just look at the Ipswich murderer who killed five of them. You can say some women enjoy it, but most are doing it because they have to feed a drug habit, or trying to support family, so are practically forced into it.They're desperate for the money, and the men (whom the women have absolutely no knowledge of) take advantage of them.

As a career path, it's one of the worst. It's creepy.

[Ralph]

Interesting question and I'll chip in later - I do think we're backward in this country on these matters

[Wayne]

just look at the Ipswich murderer who killed five of them.

The best reason for legalizing it & controlling it.
Besides which, a serial murderer could target any particular category of person. In that case it happened to be prostitutes. But whilst prostitution could never realistically be controlled entirely, legalising it would at least help to make it safer for them.
I personally have never used, & never will use a prostitute, but i firmly believe in a pragmatic approach to this problem.

[Lissa]

Paying for sex isn't wrong and those that want to pay for it should be able to. Why is it legal for a man to pay a woman to have sex with another man (and record it) but not to pay a woman to have sex with him? In a society sex is either for sale or it isn't. The government are talking about new legislation to make more aspects of prostitution illegal (because its a ramshackle mix of things that are against the law and things which aren't). This is absurd as it will drive the business further underground and make it even less safe. A woman walking the streets is at least marginally safer than one lurking in dark alleys attracting an even lower quality of trade.

There is a market for prostitution and it will be filled - we need legal brothels with women (and men) who choose to work there and are treated as employees with all the rights/responsibilities that brings. The facilities would be licensed, inspected, controlled and taxed just like any other business. Strip clubs have entered the mainstream so why should brothels not do likewise?

At the same time they do that, they should crack down on unlicensed illegal brothels. Those who keep women as prostitutes against their will should be guilty of rape because rape shouldn't be limited to forcing a woman to have sex with you - it should be forcing her to have sex with anyone. These places advertise so it can't be impossible to find them, raid them and shut them down.

Paying for sex is a perfectly reasonable thing to do and under the right circumstances it would be more moral than sleazy one night stands. Society is one big prick-tease right now - we're sold sex left, right and centre and yet when it comes to buying it, we're told that is wrong. Legalising it won't make everything right but it will make things better.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

I don't really like the use of the phrase "using prostitutes"... they're people not hollowed-out mellons.

[Si Hunt]

Is it any different from "using solicitors" or "using nail manicurists"?

Si.

[Captain Tancredi]

Personally, I think it is wrong. It's dangerous and it creates crime. - there's risk of disease (spreading STDs, aids etc), rape, death, emotional damage... just look at the Ipswich murderer who killed five of them.

A lot of those issues would at the least be addressed with the sort of system Tim suggests- if you have licensed brothels with the prostitutes undergoing regular health checks to ensure they're free from drugs and disease, you can also have bouncers and panic buttons to ensure that the sex workers aren't subject to attack. Take the people trafficking element out of the sex industry in this country and you're left with an industry where everybody knows what's going on and it's out in the open and above board. Keep everything criminal and the gangs controlling prostitutes will take the line that they may as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb and carry on luring girls from the poorest parts of Eastern Europe.

[Pip Madeley]

Well quite, but that's all fantasy really, I'm talking about the harsh reality and that's what's forming my judgement. I just don't agree with it, but of course if someone decides they want to sell their body for sex, that's their life.

[Wayne]

Disagreeing with it is fine. I disagree with murder, but it still happens.
The harsh reality is that they're a lot more vulnerable to attack/rape/murder/etc... out on the streets than they would be in a legalised brothel. Surely you can see the logic in that?
As Lissa says, it's not a perfect solution, but it's gotta be better than being out on the streets at the mercy of god knows who.

[Carol Baynes]

Paying for sex isn't wrong and those that want to pay for it should be able to.

That is an opinion, not a fact. Probbaly always will be.

There is a market for prostitution and it will be filled - we need legal brothels with women (and men) who choose to work there and are treated as employees with all the rights/responsibilities that brings. The facilities would be licensed, inspected, controlled and taxed just like any other business. Strip clubs have entered the mainstream so why should brothels not do likewise?

Yeah, I agree with that- it would make it a lot safer.

Paying for sex is a perfectly reasonable thing to do and under the right circumstances it would be more moral than sleazy one night stands. Society is one big prick-tease right now - we're sold sex left, right and centre and yet when it comes to buying it, we're told that is wrong. Legalising it won't make everything right but it will make things better.

How reasonable is it? Again, it's down to personal opinion. I always see it as regrettable, and the lust option of the lonely and lost. Again, that's my opinion.

Sometimes women have to do what they will to survive, and it's a sad sign of society that this is often the only option open to them.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Did you mean "last option"? Lust option works just as well though

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Is it any different from "using solicitors" or "using nail manicurists"?

Si.

Well... I don't suppose it is, but then I don't think I would ever say either of those either.

[Carol Baynes]

Did you mean "last option"? Lust option works just as well though

Yes, I did mean lust.

[Captain Tancredi]

Yes, I did mean lust.

Damn, that's what I've been missing out on all these years- but seriously, the illegality of prostitution means that if I ever did feel the need to, I wouldn't know where to go (short of Amsterdam, and the mood would probably have passed by the time I'd booked the flight and got there) and wouldn't know how to approach somebody.

[Kinggodzillak]

Something I've wondered about; when you engage the services of a prostitute, does it absolutely have to be for sex? What if you fancy a game of Scrabble but you've no-one to play against - could you go out, find a prostitute, bring her home, set up the board and get down to some heavy spelling?

So long as she's getting paid, she can't object, can she?

[Si Hunt]

I'm not an authority on the subject, but I'm sure you can. I'm sure some people just like to talk. And surely any prostitute would be relieved, when she previously thinks she's going to have to enter some stranger, when he whips out his scrabble set and reveals he wants nothing more from her than a triple-word score.

Si.

[Ralph]

Something I've wondered about; when you engage the services of a prostitute, does it absolutely have to be for sex? What if you fancy a game of Scrabble but you've no-one to play against - could you go out, find a prostitute, bring her home, set up the board and get down to some heavy spelling?

So long as she's getting paid, she can't object, can she?

I think there's got to be cheaper ways of finding a Scrabble pal!

[Lissa]

That is an opinion, not a fact. Probbaly always will be.

...

Again, it's down to personal opinion.

Of course it is personal opinion - that's what conversations are. The RT forum exchanges facts, normal ones do not. I could preface everything with an explanatory quip or conclude everything with a signposting emoticon but I don't want to.

IT IS MY OPINION AND ONLY MY OPINION that society has an inconsistency about sex - you can tease in the newspapers and magazines, you can tease with hardcore porn, you can tease with strippers but it won't let people finish the whole messy business off with a hooker. You either see sex as cheap and commercial or you don't.

I DO NOT STATE THE FOLLOWING AS FACT BUT IT SEEMS LIKELY TO ME that some women would choose to work as legalised prostitutes. They already choose to work in strip clubs and in porn. Obviously some do not but many would.

I AM AWARE THERE MAY BE CONTRARY POINTS OF VIEW BUT it isn't only the lonely and the inadequate that are the market for prostitutes. Successful single people (of either gender) don't have either the time or the desire for a relationship. Why should they not visit a brothel just as easily as they visit the gym? Visiting a brothel (using a prostitute if you prefer) is almost too direct and too honest for people to accept. You want sex, you have sex. None of this messing about with nightclubs, lies, flowers, lies, dinner, lies, chocolates, lies, getting her drunk, lies and post-shag anger, bitterness and lies.

IT IS A FACT AND NOT AN OPINION WHICH FOLLOWS when I say I've never been with a prostitute. I've paid for sex but only emotionally. I want something done about this because Ben Elton's "High Society" delved into the lowest end of prostitution and I still feel sick every time I think about it. Something has to be done and since it can't be eliminated it must be brought into an arena where it can be controlled.

IT IS ALSO A FACT that I'm teasing m'love and for that I apologise. I'm still not adding a winking yellow face thing though.

[Wayne]

It seems that one of the issues being touched on in this dicussion, is how we view sex, & the relationship between love & sex?
In an ideal world the two things should go together, but unfortunately for many people their world is not ideal. I'd guess that most people in their heart of hearts would love to be in a loving, sexual relationship, but everyone's lives are shaped by their own personal circumstances, & i'm sure as Lissa says, there are people that just don't want all that. And in the meantime most people have their sex drives to deal with.
There's a certain view in some European countries (granted a stereotypical one) of us Brits being 'sexually repressed'. I know from personal experience that the Dutch for instance are far more open about sex & sexuality than we seem to be as a rule, & think that the idea of paying for sex doesn't have the same stigma attached to it as it does over here. It's certainly that stigma that's part reason behind my previous statement that i'd never use a prostitute. Somehow it feels cheap & seedy. But if i'd been raised in Holland, chances are it wouldn't seem such a big deal? Not that i want to generalize about every Dutch person ever, just because of my own experience. I'm sure there must be many who feel very british about it all.
Then there's the question of our spirituality brought into the equation. Like many, for me personally, sex is intrinsically liked with 'love' & being in a relationship. Isn't that after all the spritual ideal? That's also part of the reason behind my statement about not using a prostitute. I'm someone who's never gone all out for sex. I've never chased 'one night stands' like a lot of people do, & although i have done it on the odd occasion when it's fallen into my lap, so to speak, i've never really been into sex for sex's sake. But i wouldn't judge people who are, so long as they're not abusing anyone.
But when i've not been in a relationship, which is probably about 75% of my adult life, i can't just shut down my sex drive, so like most single people i take the obvious way out for sexual relief. Yes the dreaded 'M' word.
But isn't that supposed to be bad for you as well? Does that consign me to the ranks of the 'lonely & the lost', or 'inadequate'? From that point of view, i can't see much difference between people who masturbate to scratch their sexual itch, & people who would if they could, go to a legalised brothel where they could get sexual relief in a safe, controlled enviroment for all parties concerned.
I know i've rambled, & i'm not even 100% sure exactly what my point is, But i suppose ultimately what i'm saying is who's to judge what's right & wrong for different people? If someone wants to treat sex purely as a means of getting physical pleasure, & has the oppurtunity to do so in way which is legal, & safe etc... etc... Should we look down on a person who would avail him or herself of that oppurtunity if they could, & wanted to? I say 'No'.

But i say again. Whatever you think of it, & whatever your moral or spritual ground: Protistution is a reality. It's not going to go away. And no amount of moral or spritual idealism is going to help prostitutes to be safe from danger. Making it legal would at least help with that. No it's not perfect, but there's no such thing as perfection. That's the way of the world. The government, & perhaps we as a society(?) can either get real & deal with it, or we can just go on like we have for hundreds of years already.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

...when she previously thinks she's going to have to enter some stranger...

Hmm, I'm clearly doing something wrong...