2:12 Fragments

[Zbigniev Hamson]

I think that using a recognised mental illness as a cheap plot device in a sci-fi telefantasy is kind of unpleasant.

Why is that more unpleasant than using any other kind of recognised illness? Or people being shot? I don't see how showing a regular character reacting to the illness of his partner is in any way cheap. It's not like he kept hiding her keys and laughing at her.

[NorthernStar]

Definitely it was the same jar, but I'm not sure if there was a hand in it.

No hand, just a fleshy thing.

Gratuitous "gay agenda" moment with the pointless lesbianisation of the old Torchwood ladies. And UNIT going all dark might have appealed to me when I was 14, but I just don't find things like that "cool" anymore.

It was as pointless as Adrift's Jack/Ianto scene. And the sexual way they both walked was completely at odds with the time period and it ruined the "realism" for me.

I think that using a recognised mental illness as a cheap plot device in a sci-fi telefantasy is kind of unpleasant.

It was dealt with respectfully and sensitively and in no way demeaned anyone with the illness. There was nothing, imo, that was offensive about this storyline.

[WhiteCrow]

No hand, just a fleshy thing.

Perhaps having seen Friday Night Project it's some kind of sick fan "collect enough body parts and build your own David Tennant".

I'm surprised if it's "some fleshy thing" that the fan boards aren't full of "it's the Doctors penis - that's why he couldn't love Rose ...".

[Dirk Gently]

The Doctor doesn't have a Penis, he's a bit like Action Man in that area. He's just a pair of plastic pants & a trade mark!

[Andy Frankham]

And the sexual way they both walked was completely at odds with the time period and it ruined the "realism" for me.

One of many things that didn't work in this episode. For one thing, both Torchwood operatives were women? In 1888 (or whenever). Come on, there's no way a woman (let alone two) would be working in something like Torchwood back then. It was very much a man's world.

Anyhoo. Big gripe is this: there was no PLOT at all in this episode. A flimsy reason to indulge in some backstory, with the stuff about John Hart added at the end to set up the next episode. I'm hoping that the backstory we learned will have some bearing on the next episode, cause at least we can say it was a two-parter.

Pfft. Torchwood fails to be even remotely 'must see' TV for me.

Thank god Doctor Who's back on Saturday!

[Rob McCow]

I agree - it would have been better if the back stories had fed into the framing story in some way. In any way. If someone had said 'I was just thinking about how I joined Torchwood...'

[NorthernStar]

One of many things that didn't work in this episode. For one thing, both Torchwood operatives were women? In 1888 (or whenever). Come on, there's no way a woman (let alone two) would be working in something like Torchwood back then. It was very much a man's world.

I don't think women in early Torchwood is that surprising. Most secret organisations in less enlightened times used woman in some capacity or other, because there are some aspects of agent work a man can't, um... provide the right equipment for.

Also, it was pre-turn of the century woman who began what would become the Suffragette movement so while ladies of this era weren't quite burning their bras (aside: probably the oddest, most contrary act of self-expressionism) they would have been woman interested in the kind of life Torchwood offers.

However, as I said before, their sexualised personas on the streets of Cardiff was definately off for the time period.

Big gripe is this: there was no PLOT at all in this episode. A flimsy reason to indulge in some backstory, with the stuff about John Hart added at the end to set up the next episode. I'm hoping that the backstory we learned will have some bearing on the next episode, cause at least we can say it was a two-parter.

It definately would have benefited from just being a simple "four stories" concept, with either none of or the barest minimum of framing - say, Jack wandering the Hub and passing the various stations of the Team as we cut to their flashbacks and have Jack get the hologram message in the last
closing minute.

I enjoyed this episode though and it was nice to have everyone on the team (well, except Gwen, but not many people care about her) have their own moment of glory.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

It definately would have benefited from just being a simple "four stories" concept, with either none of or the barest minimum of framing - say, Jack wandering the Hub and passing the various stations of the Team as we cut to their flashbacks and have Jack get the hologram message in the last closing minute.

I totally disagree with that. The bomb/rubble subplot was the only bit of real drama in the episode. It worked as a bit of tension running in the background (which you couldn't really get from flashback sequences) and something to ponder over as you watched the other stories. Just having Jack wandering around drinking coffee and watching people type would have been awful.

[WhiteCrow]

Also, it was pre-turn of the century woman who began what would become the Suffragette movement so while ladies of this era weren't quite burning their bras (aside: probably the oddest, most contrary act of self-expressionism) they would have been woman interested in the kind of life Torchwood offers.

For some reason this had be checking on Wikipedia that the bra as we know it is an invention of the 20th Century! It's been an interesting half hour of "research"!

If Captain Jack has been in Cardiff all this time, did he ever meet Gwyneth? Or did he appear after the events of the Unquiet Dead?

[Rob McCow]

He has to leave Torchwood and join the army within 10 years for the events referred to in 'Small Worlds'. I have a feeling that any attempt at a Captain Jack chronology is doomed to failure.

[Andy Frankham]

You got that right, Steve. I can understand the continuity of Who being a bit bollocks, since there have been so many producers, etc, over the last 45 years, but Torchwood has no such reason. ONE man has overseen both shows so there's no need for such blatant cock-ups all the time. It'd be like Joss rewriting Buffy's history in any given season of BtVS (which he did, but that was intentional and within the overall story).

My support for Torchwood is almost falling to nill here. Such a shame, really.

[NorthernStar]

For some reason this had be checking on Wikipedia that the bra as we know it is an invention of the 20th Century! It's been an interesting half hour of "research"!

I never fails to amaze me how many people turn to the Paragon of Acuracy that is the Wiki!

Burning their bras is more an expression now of women's liberation, although it did take place, mostly as part of the American WL.

If Captain Jack has been in Cardiff all this time, did he ever meet Gwyneth? Or did he appear after the events of the Unquiet Dead?

If he was in Cardiff at the time, he'd had to stay out of the way to avoid altering his and the Doctor's personal timelines.

[WhiteCrow]

He has to leave Torchwood and join the army within 10 years for the events referred to in 'Small Worlds'. I have a feeling that any attempt at a Captain Jack chronology is doomed to failure.

I'm sure we'll find he was on a mission, undercover, and was in control.

I never fails to amaze me how many people turn to the Paragon of Acuracy that is the Wiki!

Burning their bras is more an expression now of women's liberation, although it did take place, mostly as part of the American WL.

I'm a martyr to research. I'm pretty sure, knowing human nature as I do, that the bras women burnt in the 60s were likely to be the ones which had their worst wear, and thus should of been but into the bin anyway.

In these enlightened days of course, burning bras is bad for the environment ...

[enzo1701]

I've kept a bit quiet on this episode because it was quite a story heavy episode to get my head around but a couple of things came to mind while reading everyone's comments.

1) Captain Jack would have been working for Torchwood Cardiff during the events of S1's Boom Town. Did he keep his head down knowing that The Doctor that was visiting was before the time he was killed in Parting of the Ways? Also that he would have encountered a version of himself who had only just started travelling with the Doctor himself? Would he also have kept his head down when Rose was doing her "Doctor Blue Box" internet searches all the way back in Rose?

2) Torchwood, Cardiff's team of pre-1999. I'd like to see more of them and more of the story that we seemed to walk in on at the end of Jack's flashback. (And was that office still there because the whole Millennium Centre/Roald Dahl Plass wasn't there in 1999? In fact, I seem to remember it being wasteland)

3) Was it John Barrowman playing Grey?

4) Could the Toshiko Sato that now works for Torchwood Cardiff possibly be a different character to the Toshiko Sato that worked in London Hospital in Aliens of London? (Like Martha's cousin in Army of Ghosts)

I'm sure that there was something else I wanted to say but it's gone... if I remember, expect a "5)" at some point.

[Jason Thompson]

4) Could the Toshiko Sato that now works for Torchwood Cardiff possibly be a different character to the Toshiko Sato that worked in London Hospital in Aliens of London? (Like Martha's cousin in Army of Ghosts)

As I mentioned before, the character is Aliens Of London was not given a full name. Just Dr. Sato. Now although she is clearly the same actress, and the series publicity has indicated that she is the same character, nothing seen on screen to date actually confirms that the two characters are one and the same. So the answer is 'quite possibly'.

That makes more sense to me than an undercover visit to London from an agency that apparently never leaves Cardiff. The more so since Jack's information about what goes on in London apparently didn't include the fact that Torchwood 1 was destroyed until Ianto told him during one of his early 'begging for a job' visits.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Although it might well be possible that the two Dr Satos from the same Universe who look exactly the same etc might be two different people, it's a bit sh*t and pointless from an aestetic point of view for that to be the case. If you didn't want to re-use the character, then surely you would just write another character? If you REALLY like an actress enough to re-cast her in a different part then surely you'd give her a different name at least to make it clear she was someone different? If she isn't the same Dr Sato then it's all a bit stupid really.

[WhiteCrow]

The whole Tosh Sato thing had be confused when first watching Torchwood, I remembered her as the doctor in Aliens of London, but in Torchwood she's the techie not the medic.

[NorthernStar]

Although it might well be possible that the two Dr Satos from the same Universe who look exactly the same etc might be two different people, it's a bit sh*t and pointless from an aestetic point of view for that to be the case. If you didn't want to re-use the character, then surely you would just write another character? If you REALLY like an actress enough to re-cast her in a different part then surely you'd give her a different name at least to make it clear she was someone different? If she isn't the same Dr Sato then it's all a bit stupid really.

It is the same character. The actress confirmed it and mentioned RTD's approval here -

http://www.syfyportal.com/news424800.html

And in a nifty piece of continuity Mori has confirmed that her two characters are the one and the same and this season of the series will give a little bit of back story into her adventures before “Torchwood.”

"Yes, I can now officially clarify that," she said. "Yes. I cleared it with [executive producer] Russell T. Davies and he said yes. Actually, that gets referred to a lot later on in the second season of ‘Torchwood’ as well. It was, if you like, sort of a nifty infiltration on Torchwood's part. ... You have to keep watching the second series of ‘Torchwood.’ There's a lot of things that get cleared up. I'm sure that they were bombarded with questions from fans of ‘Doctor Who’ and ‘Torchwood’ wondering why it wasn't Owen."

That we haven't seen it yet suggest it was either:

A) In an earlier script but never filmed.

B) It was filmed, but cut for time. In which case it might turn up as a deleted scene on the box set.

C) It's in Exit Wounds.

Although I still favour my mates explaination for it - that it was Owen in Aliens of London. He and Tosh had been bodyswapped!

[Jason Thompson]

Although it might well be possible that the two Dr Satos from the same Universe who look exactly the same etc might be two different people, it's a bit sh*t and pointless from an aestetic point of view for that to be the case. If you didn't want to re-use the character, then surely you would just write another character? If you REALLY like an actress enough to re-cast her in a different part then surely you'd give her a different name at least to make it clear she was someone different? If she isn't the same Dr Sato then it's all a bit stupid really.

It's hardly out of character for Russel T 'Ooh, what if we make Captain Jack and the Face of Boe one and the same for no sensible reason after three years' Davies though, and in any case, there wasn't much of a character from Aliens Of London to re-use. It seems far more likely that Naoko Mori was cast in Torchwood and Davies thought 'since we have the same actress we might as well make it the same character' and then that kind of got forgotten about.

[Si Hunt]

Pffft, anyone would think "old" Doctor Who never made continuity gaffs. Was making me laugh a good reason for the Jack/Face of Boe line?

I enjoyed this episode. I thought it was interesting and fun, though Ianto's sequence was clearly the one they spent the least amount of thought on. Owen's segment was quite heartbreaking, and Tosh's redefined UNIT slightly, which was quite an intriguing thing to do. I'm sure the Brig wouldn't have approved.

My only qualm really is that it's starting to appear a bit of a thorn in the series side' that Owen is still technically dead. It didn't make sense to start with, now you have to ask why he isn't rotting/getting damaged. Does it make any difference? If so, how? If not, why the fuss about it? It's a bit of a constant reminder that being dead and being ok are possible, which dilutes the threat a bit.

But it was another entertaining episode, in my opinion.

Si.

[Andy Frankham]

I'll add my voice in that. It really was/is badly thought out. Much like Torchwood as a whole, really. Who was doing so well with internal continuity this time around, until Torchwood turned up.

[Jason Thompson]

Pffft, anyone would think "old" Doctor Who never made continuity gaffs.

Of course it did, over twenty-six years and mulitple production teams. We're only three years in with the same people at the helm and it's all going pear-shaped already.

My only qualm really is that it's starting to appear a bit of a thorn in the series side' that Owen is still technically dead. It didn't make sense to start with, now you have to ask why he isn't rotting/getting damaged.

Yes indeed. Not rotting, OK, just about. Not getting damaged, highly highly highly unlikely, given the number of scratches and bruises the avergae guy who doesn't do a job that puts him in physical danger on a regular basis gets. How did being buried under rubble not damage him? I'd have liked to have seen the glass fall and decapitate him, personally. That could have been fun. 'Great, now I'm just a head....'

It's a bit of a constant reminder that being dead and being ok are possible, which dilutes the threat a bit.

See my comments about RTD's bullshit about having death to make it all more real in Reset. Why kill him and then bring him back ten minutes into the next episode?

But it was another entertaining episode, in my opinion.

Agreed. It kept me watching for 45 minutes, which is the main objective after all.

[Andrew Curnow]

In the words of Henry Kelly, I'm playing catch-up, so at the risk of inflaming those darned Moderators (may their shells be blighted) I'm going to add comments to all of the S2 Torchwood threads, which means a whole lot of old threads suddenly rising to the surface again. In the words of Patsy Smart, it's a floater.

And moving on...

Enjoyed episode 12, although it did seem to drag a little bit - not quite sure I buy Ianto as 'passing Macho stranger' but (as with much of this series) he got some funny lines and it was entertaining back-story. Tosh's was a surprise. It was interesting to see a quick precis of Jack's career too - not sure why Victorian Torchwood was run by two apparently psychotic ladies, but never mind. The bit with Adam (I think that was the name, you know, Jack's boss in 1999) killing his team and then himself, was very striking - imagine if that had actually been a season finale after a whole season with those guys, amazing!!

So, very entertaining, and occasionally surprising, padding. It loses a couple of marks with me, simply because in the 1999 bit I expected to suddenly see them all sucked inside out through the Eye of Harmony!!

[Captain Tancredi]

(And was that office still there because the whole Millennium Centre/Roald Dahl Plass wasn't there in 1999? In fact, I seem to remember it being wasteland)

Funny you should say that- one of the things I like about the location work in Torchwood is that I can remember being at Cardiff Bay in 2001 and the whole complex was pretty much half-built; the big open space which is supposed to be above Torchwood was paved but not much else.

[Rob McCow]

killing his team and then himself, was very striking - imagine if that had actually been a season finale after a whole season with those guys, amazing!!

Ah, if only that would happen tonight!