Wrestling

[Martin Curnow]

Can’t see another thread so I’m starting one!

I was brought up with the Saturday 4pm wrestling slot on World of Sport with the likes of Big Daddy, Giant Haystacks, Mick McManus, Bert Royal et al.

My grandpa was one of the of the most amenable, peaceful men you could ever have hoped to meet but I can well remember him having a right go at the telly if the referee failed to pick up any underhand shenanigans going on from Mick or Tally-Ho Kaye.

The Wrestling Channel shows some of the old stuff but it’s mostly American stuff we get nowadays.

I’ve just been watching (on You Tube!) Ric Flair’s last fight from Wrestlemania. I know it’s all set up and storylined but I tell you, no-one has done as much in their career as he has. He was in tears in the middle of the ring at the end as he’s ended his career. I love the guy!!

So folks, are you into wraslin’ and who do you like to watch and who do you hate?

[WhiteCrow]

Ooh - well I'm glad you enjoy wrestling.

But really it's not a sport is it? More like a well choreographed ballet with really big men.

I remember my great grandmother used to love Saturday wrestling with a gin and tonic - it was a grannies favourite, and grandsons loved watching it with them. So it'll always have a special place in my heart.

The problem with the new stuff is it's so much shouting at each other. And you just about can suspend disbelief and believe it's real with men. When you see women "wrestling" each other it's "omg this is SO fake".

They're fairly easy on the eye ...



But I have to admit I prefered the topless wrestling they used to have on Men and Motors.

[Martin Curnow]

Admittedly it's not a sport as such - they refer to it as sports entertainment in the WWE. But, you gotta admit they must be fit to be able to do what they do.

Talking of fit in another context, nice photo!!

[Jeff]

There's a wrestling thread somewhere on the TV forum I started last summer, I think, but it died on its... behind. We had some more lively pro wrestling forums back in the day on the old forum though...

I had a long stint where I had stopped watching wrestling starting around 2002 or 2003, then I watched a bit in the first half of 2006, and then I started watching again at the end of last June. I was watching WWE, TNA and a lot of ROH until about Dec, then I stopped watching ROH, and in Feb I quit watching TNA cos I wanted more time to do other things... I'm also more prone to fast forwarding through WWE content that I am not interested in now (I DVR)... Especially ECW which I only watch for CM Punk and (yes, I'll admit it) Colin Delaney.

[duncan]

My 12 year old son spotted that picture was Beth Pheonix within seconds. He's an expert on the WWE Diva's.

[Lissa]

These days I only download the pay per views for my nephew. I usually skip through them to make sure they're ok and I'll stop to watch anything of interest. Apart from that I've no real desire to watch any of the current product. I watched it religiously when it was good (by which I mean actually good not it-was-better-in-the-old-days good). John Cena is all fine and large but he's not The Rock and he's not Stone Cold Steve Austin.

The last match I watched which was any good was the recent Samoa Joe vs Kurt Angle match from TNA's Lockdown. They worked a hybrid pro wrestling / MMA match and it worked really well. There aren't many who could do that style but it works when its done right.

I still subscribe to the Observer - mainly for the MMA coverage and the historical pieces (and obituaries) - so I'm aware of what's going on in the business (Michael Hayes is a moron when drunk - who knew?) but I don't really care any more.

And WWE's women all look the same these days. Whatever happened to having people you can tell apart? TNA at least have Roxxi Laveaux who is a revelation since changing her gimmick. But the hottest woman is wrestling is Ring of Honor / Shimmer star Lacey.

[Lissa]

This thread has inspired me to dust off some of my old World of Sport DVDs and add some new matches to the website.

[Jeff]

So Brock Lesnar vs. Randy Couture.

Who's going to win? Thoughts?


I don't usually follow any MMA, but I have dl'ed all of Brocks fights, and the last Fedor fight, and the Elite XC with Kimbo and Tank.

[Dirk Gently]

The winner will be the one who has been scripted to win by the writers.

[Jeff]

The winner will be the one who has been scripted to win by the writers.

While this is the Pro Wrestling thread, the upcoming match I'm referring to is MMA which isn't scripted (Lesnar was a fromer pro-wrestler, which is why I put here rather than starting a new thread).

[Jeff]

(double post)

[Lissa]

It's the most intriguing fight in MMA history by a long way. We knew Royce Gracie was washed up when he fought Matt Hughes, we knew Tito Ortiz didn't really have a chance against Chuck Liddell and we knew that Tank wasn't really going to beat Kimbo. Maybe if Anderson Silva and Georges St Pierre ever meet in the Octagon it will come close to Couture vs Lesnar but even that won't quite have the real life movie feel to November's fight.

Brock is 2-1 and still very inexperienced. But Randy doesn't have Frank Mir's submission skills to take advantage of a Lesnar mistake. Randy controlled much larger men in Gabriel Gonzaga and Tim Sylvia in his last two fights but neither of them were 280lbs and freaks of nature.

The fight comes down to a 2-1 fighter meeting a 16-8 fighter, a rookie with the potential to be the best in the world against probably the greatest American fighter in history. Either man has shown himself capable of losing or winning any fight he's in.

I will be betting on Randy Couture because I promised myself I'd always bet on Randy. It just feels like the right thing to do. I think he's smart enough to avoid Brock's punches, he'll test Brock's chin early, Brock will certainly take him down but he won't be able to finish him on the ground. Randy will be able to go five rounds, Brock probably won't be at that size. Randy's got the best camp in the country and he needs to learn some submissions now. Don't bother with chockes - not with a neck like Lesnar's - but arm and especially leg locks.

This time last year I believed Randy could beat Fedor. I don't any longer - Fedor isn't human - but I think Couture-Lesnar is 51-49 in Randy's favour.

[Jeff]

I've read that Anderson Silva is the best fighter in the world pound for pound, and I was surprised becuase with all the hype around Fedor, I thought he was considered the best of all?

Is there any chance Silva could ever challenge fighters in a higher weight class, or are the rules strict where he would actually have to gain the weight to be in the weight class before fighting? i.e., is there any chance there would ever be a Silva vs. Fedor fight? (The article I read made it sound like Silva had pretty much beaten every challenge availabe in his class)

I've read that Couture vs. Fedor could possibly be done and is likely for the future somehow, but is that dependent on him beating Brock, or is that a done deal and part of getting him to return to UFC?

[Lissa]

Anderson Silva fights at 185lbs (middleweight) but has started fighting at 205 (light heavyweight) because he wants - in the oft quoted words of the Great Kali - some competition. Fedor is a heavyweight and never weighs less than 225-230 so its unlikely he'd ever fight Anderson Silva. Silva is on a hot streak right now and looks unbeatable whereas Fedor hasn't fought must over the last couple of years. Tim Sylvia was his first proper fight since he fought Cro Cop in 2005. Silva has beaten Rich Franklin (twice) and Dan Henderson amongst a number of lesser talents.

Anderson Silva pretty much has one box office fight left in the middleweight division and that would be a fight in England against Michael Bisping. Apart from that it's either GSP moving up from welterweight (or BJ Penn climbing up from lightweight - which is just the sort of thing he'd do) or Silva staying in the light heavyweight division and fighting Wanderlei Silva, Forrest Griffin, Rampage Jackson or what's left of Chuck Liddell.

Fedor in the UFC is very unlikely because Fedor's Russian management team bring a lot of conditions to the table. They only sign one or two fight contracts (which UFC wouldn't consider as you don't let a guy come in, beat your top guy(s) and leave), they insist on Fedor's team mates getting contracts, they demand co-promotion rights, they demand non-exclusivity and they demand an awful lot of guaranteed money. They tried to bully UFC President Dana White. Bad idea.

[Jeff]

I see. Thanks for that.

Ewrestlingnews had it sounding like White was going to try to set up a match... edit: Stories like the THIS ONE, I guess are where the talk started...

But recent discussions with UFC president Dana White have left Couture with assurances the UFC will do all it can to make a fight with Fedor happen once the Russian is free of his contract with Affliction.

[Jeff]

So now we're going to have Kimbo vs. Ken Shamrock.. How washed up is Shamrock by now? Am I right in assuming that if he had a chance Elite XC wouldn't put him in a match with Kimbo, seeing as Kimbo is their mealticket?

[Lissa]

Shamrock is pretty darned washed up. He hasn't won a fight since June 2004 when he faced an even more washed up Kimo Leopoldo (who hadn't beaten anyone decent since 1997). Shamrock's last fight was a total squash at the hands of a British journeyman with a poor record and who was thought to have no chance of winning. Shamrock's chin has completely gone - not a good thing when facing someone who knows how to punch forwards and nothing else.

That said, James Thompson has an equally glass chin and he survived Kimbo's onslaught. He also managed to take Kimbo down at will, he just didn't have anything on the ground. Shamrock will still just about be able to remember what to do on the ground so if he gets Kimbo down he could well finish him.

I'd say it was 90-10 in Kimbo's favour but Shamrock has more of a chance than a lot of people think (albeit because Kimbo is so bad rather than Shamrock still having anything left).

[Jeff]

Does Kimbo deserve any of the hype he's had, or is he just the luckiest MMA fighter ever, to have all that following from youtube? Is there a good chance he will develop into a great fighter, or is he just a joke waiting to be exposed by a good opponent? I didn't really pull for anyone to win the Tank/Kimbo fight, since I was never really a fan of Tank, but I'll probably be rooting for Shamrock due to WWE nostalgia, along with remembering his early days UFC fights...


So has your opinion on WWE changed since April? I think it has really improved since the draft. The Jericho/Micheals feud is a classic sure to be remembered for years. I was glad to see Punk as Champ for awhile though I didn't care for how he was booked. Santino is a hoot every week. Brian Kendrick has been great IMO since his repackaging, and I'm hoping to see Jeff Hardy win the belt at No Mercy, though only maybe half expecting him to.

[Lissa]

Kimbo is supposedly training with Bas Rutten but from the evidence of the James Thompson fight, he hasn't learned anything. Kimbo has no cardio, no takedown defence, no ground skills and if you can weather the early storm, his punches lose their power too. Even his much vaunted charisma seems to go out of the window when he opens his mouth. But on his day he is exciting to watch. The Tank fight was a remarkable 45 seconds of action. He will probably never equal it. In a different age he would've gone into boxing, been an underground legend and would be the name tossed out by boxing marks as being "tougher than your ultimate fighters". The Thompson fight exposed him - not so much as a joke but as someone who is very tough but who is out of his depth with real athletes. It's worth also remembering that Kimbo's most famous YouTube fight was the Sean Gannon one which Kimbo lost. Gannon went on to lose his one and only UFC fight to Brandon Lee Hinkle who in turn sucked against every other opponent and disappeared without trace.

I've not watched any WWE in months. There are bits which sound good but not to the point where I'd want to fast forward through to find them. I stick to the newly merged F4W/Wrestling Observer site (now exceptionally good value at $9.99 a month for both newsletters and a tonne of audio shows). This month's highlight was the Hall of Fame biography of Martin Karadagian - the Argentine wrestling promoter and star who produced the wackiest and most successful pro wrestling ever seen in South America. LA MOMIA~!

[Jeff]

I actually try to avoid wrestling sites most of the time anymore. I found that knowing what was likely to happen detracted quite a bit from the fun of watching. I knew the whole Ric Flair retirement storyline from about last September so that was no surprise though it probably wouldn't have been much surprise anyway.

Even not knowing what is going to happen isn't as purely exciting as MMA, because you still know it is planned out, but it is more fun than reading every spoiler IMO.

I took a 4 year break from wrestling from 2003 until last summer myself. Sometimes you just get burned out from watching too long.

[Jonno]

I'll come back to this thread another day with my personal wrestling history (that's viewing, not taking part!) but I will say for now that I purchased the Hulk Hogan anthology the other day for a shade under £9 at Sendit. Have made a start with matches from early 80s pre WWF - very different atmosphere to the glamour and glitz of that organisation!

[Lissa]

Have you reached the AWA title match with Nick Bockwinkel? Things might've turned out differently if they'd booked that match properly.

[Jonno]

Oh yes, I've done up to and including the first Wrestlemenia - Cyndi Lauper and Mr T!

The Bockwinkel match was an odd one in as much as I didn't understand the DQ for the over the top rope. Was that a general rule way back then? One thing I've noticed with these vintage matches is that virtually the whole of the action is in-ring and there's certainly no flying over the top ropes onto your opponent outside! I guess they just weren't so agile back then!

The other thing I thought odd about that AWA title match was that there was absolutely no interference at all from Bobby Heenan - he might as well not have been there!

I'm intrigued as to your comments about booking it properly, and would love to know more - if you've already written about it on the Vervoid, could you provide a link?

I timed my purchase well - it's back up to £25 on Sendit!

[Lissa]

I really thought I had written about the match but it turns out I wrote about Bockwinkel vs Hennig in 1987, which is actually the same story so the AWA never learned.

The reality is that nothing was going to stop Vince McMahon's national expansion but in early 1983 Hulk Hogan seemed perfectly happy splitting his time between the AWA's comparatively easy circuit and lucrative Japanese tours. If he'd been given the AWA title and if Verne Gagne had made efforts to keep him sweet (Hogan was one of the first to see the potential in t-shirt sales but Verne wasn't really interested) then Hogan might've stayed. At least for a year or two and that would've changed the entire landscape.

The match itself was poorly booked because they did a "Dusty finish" when the fans really, really wanted a title change. Hogan had been chasing for years and this really was the time to finally give him the belt. To do what they did - make the fans believe the belt really had changed - only to weasel out on a technicality didn't make the crowd think "Golly - he was this close. He's bound to win it next time", it made them think what bastards the promoters were. It wasn't a finish that would've sold more tickets for the rematch - it would've sold fewer tickets for the rematch.

They could've done a blood stoppage (never popular but still acceptable in that era), a double disqualification, had outside interference leading to a screwy finish, gone to a draw or anything else which didn't leave people pissed off with the AWA when they left the arena that night.

Equally, Hulk Hogan left the building pissed off with the AWA that night and realised Verne was never going to give him the belt because he apparently believed that the money is in the babyface chasing the heel champion forever (the ten exceptions being Verne's ten reigns as AWA champion).

[Pip Madeley]

I've done up to and including the first Wrestlemenia - Cyndi Lauper and Mr T!

Something for everyone there!

I used to watch Raw and Smackdown after the Doctor Who Omnibus on Sunday mornings. I used to love the 'acting'