Road Charging - The End of Freedom

[Rob McCow]

National road tolls could be brought in within ten years, says Transport Secretary Douglas Alexander.

Last week, a treasury study suggested road charges could halve congestion and could benefit the economy by 28bn a year.

That's all very good and well for the economy, but what about the people who are paying the charge? That's 28bn less for them to spend!

How much is it going to cost to give everyone a little black box in their car?

More importantly, is this the end of the freedom to travel? Congestion Charging in London has only affected those who can't afford to pay 8 a day on top of fuel, road tax and car running costs. Business and more-well-off people are able to absorb these costs without it really affecting them. Could these schemes become a way to keep the poor out of our salubrious cities?

It's been decades since we realised that car travel at the current rate is unsustainable. Yet is there a viable alternative? I don't think so. People have to drive to get to where they work. If anything, it's poor city planning and the ramming of more business into central London that's causing the problem, in my view.

[Paul Clement]

It's been decades since we realised that car travel at the current rate is unsustainable.

And despite this, they are only now starting to do something about it, and no, it's not even that good an idea. If they really wanted to reduce the amount of car usage, then they should have looked at the alternative forms of transport and made them cheaper and more viable options.

Trains need to be more reliable and buses need to be made more frequent, but nothing has been done about it. The company's running these public transport systems aren't going to do it off of there own back as there remit is to offer a service but also to make a profit for their board. Nationalising them is probably the only way that the Government can control the prices, but I cannot see that happening.

As it is, they're looking at charging drivers extra and that's not going to go down to well with the people it affects. Still, they do need to do something.

[Rob McCow]

Precisely - all these schemes to raise revenue that just seems to vanish into the Government's black hole.

[Si Hunt]

They keep saying that charging people more will cut the number of people on the roads - well, it might, but in the process of pricing off the road all the people that can find an alternative, you are making those that can't spend all their income on getting to work or, even worse, forcing people to find alternative jobs because the roads are too expensive to use! There has to be a better way. Can't they somehow give firms the authority to give people 'commuters cards' which prove they are travelling in order to get to work, and then just charge everyone without such a card? That way people who are genuinely using the roads because they need to in order to earn a living are exempt. Firms could also issue the cards after a meeting with the employee to discuss their travelling arrangements, discussing with them the possibilities of using public transport IF it is available. We have enough pointless meetings at the moment, one more wouldn't make any different.

Si.

[Paul Clement]

Can't they somehow give firms the authority to give people 'commuters cards' which prove they are travelling in order to get to work, and then just charge everyone without such a card? That way people who are genuinely using the roads because they need to in order to earn a living are exempt.

This still wouldn't hugely reduce the number of people using the roads though, and that's what the whole idea is ultimately aimed at. They are trying to get people to use alternative forms of transport, which would be fine if they sorted the public transport system out first.

[Trudi G]

When i lived outside London in a more rural area, a car was essential as the buses were awful. When i came back to back to London i found i couldn't afford to drive, because apart from the astronomical cost of petrol, road tax, and insurance, there was also the cost of the congestion charge, CPZ charges, garages trying to rip you off on your M.O.T. and vandalism to have to pay for too. In London it's not too hard to get around by public transport - although that can be costly too. At times it would be convenient to have a car, and i do miss it sometimes, but people like myself have been priced out of the system, and with fares increasing by so much, year on year, i won't be able to afford public transport either soon!
I'd like to know where all this extra money the government is making goes.

[Lissa]

These days it must be possible for an awful lot of people to work from home for at least part of the week. I could easily work at home for two or three days a week (or at least I could if I had a working PC with which to log into their network) and save several journeys a week.

It is culture changes like the idea of trusting people to work at home rather than forcing them to convene at a central point so they can sit at a computer and communicate with everyone via email or phone that will help reduce congestion.

They must also discourage parents from driving their children to school. It is clear from school holidays that all the congestion on my way to work is caused by parents. It won't be easy but then neither will policing a nationwide toll network.

As for public transport, they simply need to find a country which has an excellent public transport system and copy that. But if they had the sense to do that we'd also be on our way to good education, health and foreign policies too.

[Captain Tancredi]

Rather than road charging, how about the following:

-Charge double car tax for a second car registered to members of the same family at the same address.
-Ban children who live within two miles of their secondary school from travelling by private transport and provide additional school buses instead

The thing about getting people out of cars and into public transport is that the carrot approach costs too much so you have to use the stick, except some people will stay with their cars whatever. There's a bus every 15 minutes into Leeds from my town in the rush hour, but the road is still solid because the bus can't beat the door-to-door convenience if you have a parking space at work. Then again, part of the reason why I don't drive is that I can get a 13 bus ticket for a week's travel to work, while parking in Leeds would cost me 5 a day minimum before the running costs and petrol I'd need for a car. The Dutch seem to make public transport work properly, so perhaps we should look at what they're doing right.

[Jason Thompson]

It's been said before, here and elsewhere, but it's worth repeating:

If governments want to cut down road use by private transport then they need to improve the public transport first.

This is such a fundamental and obvious point that it's a wonder no-one in the relevant authorities seems to have worked it out. If you don't provide people with a decent alternative to the service you are effectively penalising them for all you'll do is breed resentment.

[Paul Clement]

-Ban children who live within two miles of their secondary school from travelling by private transport and provide additional school buses instead

This wouldn't even vaguely work, it's just not practical. A lot of children are dropped off by their parents on the way to work, even if they're not, if this was put into place, the parents could easily say they were doing it.

[Lord President]

Cheaper, more efficient rail services! I love travelling by train, but it is so bloody expensive these days, I need to take out another mortgage to visit my parents by train!

[duncan]

and with fares increasing by so much, year on year, i won't be able to afford public transport either soon!
I'd like to know where all this extra money the government is making goes.

That's not strictly true.

I work on London Underground and although cash fares have rocketed beyond belief, paying for your journey on an Oyster Card costs the same now as it did two years ago. There will be another fares increase in Jan, but once again Oyster card fares are frozen for most pay as you go journeys.

What I am really hacked off about is the fact that congestion charges and new housing brings more and more people on to buses and tubes yet the level of the service has remained static. No extra buses are being laid on and they are always full up. It's a scrum to get on them as no one queues up any more.

My local station is North Greenwich which is next to what used to be called The Millenium Dome and is now called The O2. Come January 2007, the car park at North Greenwich station is being "Significantly" reduced to make way for the re-development of The O2 which will force yet more commuters on to the very poor bus services to the station. I have made a few phone calls to my colleagues that work for Transport for London to see what extra buses are being laid on to allow for this. I'll leave you to work out what their answer was.

[Rob McCow]

My local station is North Greenwich which is next to what used to be called The Millenium Dome and is now called The O2. Come January 2007, the car park at North Greenwich station is being "Significantly" reduced to make way for the re-development of The O2 which will force yet more commuters on to the very poor bus services to the station.

That's just another example of far too much being crammed into Central London. It's as though the Government want all 52 million Britains* to live in about 3% of the land area of the country**.

*I think that's right
**3% is a wild guess, but I reckon London is even smaller than that.

[Paul Monk]

In Redhill, where I live, if I had to rely on buses to get me around I'd never get anywhere. Plus train fares are rising above inflation AGAIN in january and I don't have the option of an Oyster card! I soon won't be able to afford to get to work. So how can they claim that road charging will stop people from using the roads when the alternative is just as if not more expensive? Its nonsense. And every time this road charging things brought up they never say that its going to replace car tax. I bet they just add it on top.

[Si Hunt]

Brown is expected to raise fuel duty in the new pre-budget. It'd better be on planes and 4x4's and not ordinary petrol, as that's taxed enough as it is.

I seriously don't know why they don't come down harder with the tax on aviation fuel - flights are so cheap that there's obviously room for more taxation there, plus aeroplanes are top polluters AND encouraging people to fly less would help tourism in the UK. It's got to be better than further taxing people just for trying to get to work every day.


Oink! Oink!

[Paul Monk]

The reason they don't raise tax on aviation fuel is because they stand to lose lots of business as airlines would have to put ticket prices to cover the extra cost and they'd get less passengers. The airlines also have the threat to pull out of operating in the UK which would be a blow to jobs and business. Something like that anyway.
Car owners don't have that power!
As for being the biggest polluters I agree, but have given up worrying about the planet. I still do my little bit but its so obvious the government don't really care about it except as token issue to appear to be doing something. Otherwise big business and industry as well as the airlines would be hit with huge green taxes and fines. Its easier to place the burden solely on the average waged part of the population and tax them to the eyeballs because we're obviously soooooooo wealthy! Grrrr.

[Si Hunt]

I really would vote Tory, but I doubt they'd be any better would they? And we'd lose the continuity in the small amount of good work that has been done. There's no good choice for our votes! We're subjugated who-ever we choose. It's like "The Sunmakers".

Si.

[Nathan]

We need some kind of personal carbon trading. Then we can choose how to use it.

Or a milage allowance. Those who use less can sell the excess on to those who use more, whilst still allowing us to drive without paying more up until a certain limit.

Now there is an incentive to drive less!