The Great "Invisible Enemy" DVD Fiasco

[Si Hunt]

This whole thing has left me feeling a bit bad, as I fear I was among those over-reacting slightly. But there was fault on 2-Entertain's side as well. All in all, this has been a big embarassment on both sides!

Here's a helpful catalogue of the mistakes made, in my opinion:

- 2-Entertain should have got someone to spend a few hours checking the disc before they ran off thousands of copies

- The fans shouldn't have over-reacted and started cancelling pre-orders for "Trial of a Timelord"/demanding sackings. Blimey, we're awful! It was a minor glitch in a story we all hate anyway!

- 2-Entertain should have made a statement sooner. It seemed to take them forever.

- 2-Entertain should have posted details about the return procedure on a handful of message boards. Rather than, inexplicably, posting details about a telephone number and non-responding e-mail address that gives you the message it would have been just as easy to post instead! There are still miserable and helpless fans out there waiting for an automated reply

- The fans really ought to have treated this one like previous occasional slip-ups ("Three Doctors", "Remembrance" etc), and swallowed it knowing that we can rely on the BBC to make us buy these stories again one day, or get the American editions if we are that fussed

All in all, what a monumental and damaging cock-up this has been on all sides. We blew the thing out of all proportion, effectively staged a boycot and demanded all sorts, 2-Entertain seemed to develop a communication allergy and left everyone flapping after some dumb automated e-mail message and the retailers withdrew it from the shelves.

I'm sure there wasn't all this trouble when "The Three Doctors" was messed up, and it actually now turns out this fault isn't any worse than that. But then, if we'd been told that, we'd know (I think half the problem was it was established there was a problem but no-one was quite sure what it was, so everyone assumed the worst). But then, if someone had checked the discs to start with, it wouldn't even be an issue.

What do you think?

Si.

[Ralph]

shit happens...

All in all the Who DVDS are great value and well put together...fans need to get a life if this upsets them that much

storm and tea cup come to mind

now if it had been something important like a Pertwee DVD....

[Wayne]

This whole thing has left me feeling a bit bad, as I fear I was among those over-reacting slightly.

Did you? I hadn't noticed! I've not seen what's gone off on other boards, but it seemed level headed enough here.

in a story we all hate anyway!

I like it actually!

I don't feel bad for cancelling my pre-order at all. I think the consumer has a right to expect to buy something as simple as a dvd without faults of this nature on it. I've never heard of it happening with anyone else but 2:entertain. (but i'm not saying it doesn't happen)

The fans really ought to have treated this one like previous occasional slip-ups ("Three Doctors", "Remembrance" etc), and swallowed it knowing that we can rely on the BBC to make us buy these stories again one day, or get the American editions if we are that fussed

I really disagree with that! Why should we have to buy it again? (especially as a £100 box set like 'Remembrance') And why should we have to resort to buying Region 1 versions that are gonna have to be imported & need a mult-region player to play them on!
C'mon Si, What's got into you? Maybe some fans have reacted badly, & Dr Who fans are notorious reputation for it, but that doesn't mean everyone should lie down & accept faulty products, and/or have buy them again. That's mad! It's like you've overeacted on the other side of the coin now.

What's this error on 'The Three Doctors' then? I can't say i've noticed any scenes that are out of order?!

[Matthew T]

Mistakes happen, it's part of life, and if it really is impossible for 2|entertain to check discs before mass-producing them as I've seen some people state (though personally I would've thought it was absolutely essential to do so, especially as errors keep on happening!) then so be it.

But the way they handled it since the fault was discovered is nothing short of a shambles. Days and days before anything was said, and where did they make their announcement? The RT Forum - home of the guys who work on the DVDs? No! OG - By far the biggest Doctor Who forum on the net? Don't be ridiculous! Perhaps on the BBC's Doctor Who pages? Of course not - Dr Who Online! They then relied on other people to pass the news around the more widely read forums. Bizarre!

[Logo Polish]

What's this error on 'The Three Doctors' then? I can't say i've noticed any scenes that are out of order?!

The zoom in on Corporal Palmer looking shocked at the end of episode 2 is repeated a few seconds later.

[Si Hunt]

Did you? I hadn't noticed!

Well, not in a major way. But I did point out that my automated response hadn't come, then it arrived a few hours later. Made me realise we should all be being a bit more patient.

And why should we have to resort to buying Region 1 versions that are gonna have to be imported & need a mult-region player to play them on!
C'mon Si, What's got into you?

I think what I was trying to say came over a bit wrong. I didn't mean to imply we should accept cock-ups like that, and I don't blame people for cancelling pre-orders for it. But these things happen, and I think cancelling pre-orders for future releases just in case it happens again is a little bit over the top. I think the main problem was that we should have all been a bit more patient and waited to find out the situation before leaping to conclusions. Mind you, equally if 2-entertain had been quicker keeping us informed, we wouldn't have had to.

Si.

[SiHart]

The way I look at it is that this whole episode just goes to show how Doctor Who fans really overreact to everything. It's not as if it's a huge cock up, but the way fans have reacted you'd think it was the end of the world. Yes, it's unfortunate that there was a problem, but mistakes happen, and I think people need to learn to be more paitent. Lets face it as soon as it was announced there was a fault everyone jumped in and started having a go at 2/ Entertain, cancelling orders and being generally unpleasent. I think taking a deep breath and trying not to get riled is the best response!

The thing about the response from 2/Entertain made me think. I can't get angry about that, because how often have you heard of any company making a response about a slight fault on a DVD before the DVD has been released. Waiting until the day the DVD is released is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. We were lucky that we heard anything before the DVD was released, even if it was only on the Doctor Who Online website. Looking at some of the posts on OG and the RT forums, I'm not really surprised that there was no response on those forums. Why would they want to post the news somewhere where they'd just have bitchy remarks posted at them? Can't blame them really?

Personally I think this has been handled fine. We're getting a replacement disc, there was a response, what's to worry about? Oh yes, sorry, we're dealing with fandom!

But Si, you were pretty restrained compared to most! So don't worry I'm not having a go at you. I'm just glad I didn't cancel my pre-order.

Si xx

[Si Hunt]

A couple of things - I think perhaps Doctor Who DVD's are a special case because there exists a dedicated fan movement actively in touch with the producers of the discs. This is both a blessing and a curse - it means 2-entertain have a small army of customers waiting to pre-order every release even before it's announced, which commercially must be a good thing for them. But equally, those customers know about faults and potential problems before release too, so demand to be kept up to date. Whether you think the special attention WE give their range warrants special attention in terms of release and fault information is up to you.

Another point not in 2-entertain's favour - the little comment about it being one batch that was faulty was a down right lie! In many respects, once this fault had occurred it was 2-entertain's bad luck that it got out before the DVD hit the shops. It was already too late to recall it, so it meant a lot of people cancelled pre-orders and plans to buy it, meaning we were able to put consumer protest into action in a way that actually hit profits. If the fault had emerged a week after release, I don't know if there would have been quite as much fuss, as people wouldn't have had any way of reacting against it.

Finally, I just want to add that 2-entertain e-mailed a message about the fault to Steve Roberts at the same time they told DWO, it's just he was away for the weekend and didn't post it. No excuse I know, they shouldn't rely on someone else to pass it on, but at least they didn't INTEND to exclude RT posters.

I wonder if an apology on the RT forum from Dan Hall might be a good PR move? No, he doesn't have to, no, he has no obligation to... but he has a couple of hundred 100% dedicated consumers sitting there fuming. Worth five minutes of his time to win back a bit of good will perhaps?

Si.

[Wayne]

Whilst i tale on board the comments about the behaviour of Dr Who fans over things like this, i strongly believe that on a general sense people should complain and/or make a fuss over these things.
It can only lead to manufactuers becoming more complacent if people just adopt an 'Oh never mind, these things happen' sort of attitude. It's the thin end of the wedge!

The zoom in on Corporal Palmer looking shocked at the end of episode 2 is repeated a few seconds later.

Ah right thanks Logo. That's not as bad as having scenes in the wrong order though, IMO.

[Si Hunt]

But is having 5 seconds repeated at the end of the episode really different to two scenes being swapped around? Neither is what we want, but I can't see any difference really. Especially given the former wrecks a cliffhanger "moment" in one of the finest stories in Doctor Who's history.

Si.

[Wayne]

But even if the last 5 seconds of an ep on The Three Docs is repeated, at least it's just a repeat of the scene which should be at the end of the ep, which i would argue isn't as bad as having the wrong scene at the end of the ep, which kills the continuity of the story?
(Bear in mind i haven't seen the error on The Invisible Enemy, so i don't know how long the scene lasts)

[Perry Vale]

What do you think?

Si.

Welllll....I think you'll guess what way I'll come down on this.....

I agree with Ralph....

shit happens...

and also Si Hart.....

The way I look at it is that this whole episode just goes to show how Doctor Who fans really overreact to everything.

And also of course, Wayne, when he says.....

i strongly believe that on a general sense people should complain and/or make a fuss over these things.

Not so much 'make a fuss', but certainly to expect a fault free product. And that is of course what everyone will end up getting, if they so choose. The only criticism I have of 2|e is not setting up a freepost address for returns, but even that I find understandable, as 'the customer' has no contract with 2|e, only with the retailer they bought it from. If you really don't want to pay the postage as principle, take it back to where you bought it, imo. (Knowing some fans, they'll insist 2|e pay their petrol costs )

As for 2|e taking "ages & ages" to post a response....come on! It's not their job, it's their job to contact their customers, ie. Play, Amazon, HMV etc.

Coming back to quality control, and test discs, I still don't believe there's a practical solution. Test discs can sometimes only come in a few days before final pressings. You can't have volunteers, as there's nothing to stop them from missing any fault, and what criticism would 2|e get then? The process can only really be done in an official way, and absolutely none of us here have any idea that this isn't in fact the case. How many 'real fans' themselves didn't notice the problems with Three Doctors? And none of us have any idea either, of how many faults ARE picked up from test pressings.

[Si Hunt]

As I suggested before, I think it comes down to good business sense really. 2-entertain have no obligation to keep the fans informed or happy at all. BUT we buy their product. Surely it's in their own interests to do what they can for us, so we keep on buying it.

Si.

[Perry Vale]

Surely it's in their own interests to do what they can for us, so we keep on buying it.

Si.

Of course, and it's going to be a matter of personal opinion deciding if they've done that. IMO, giving the option of getting a fault-free version is doing that. Some people will (and quite obviously do) not think that. You can't please all the people, all the time, as someone once said.

[Si Hunt]

They've done a bit, but the things that wouldn't cost them anything, like tossing a few reassuring messages our way, maybe posting an apology, keeping everyone informed, they haven't bothered with. I still don't get the logic of getting everyone to ring up to hear a message they could have posted on-line just as easily as the message with the phone number in!!

Si.

[Perry Vale]

Not meaning to be awkward, but as far as I can see, everyone has been informed.

[Si Hunt]

Well I won't argue, it's just that there seemed to be 2 or 3 days where nobody said anything and fans were flapping about wanting to know what was going on. Seeing as how Dan e-mail Steve on Saturday, they could have calmed things somewhat if they'd posted a quick note on the RT on this day saying "Apologies, there has been an error, please send your discs to us for a replacement.". Instead, there was 3 days of people trying to get replies from an automated e-mail while not knowing if the discs were going to be delayed, recalled or replaced.

Si.

[Nathan]

The cock up wasn'ty the issue. It is the piss poor response of 2e that is.

[Perry Vale]

Well I won't argue, it's just that there seemed to be 2 or 3 days where nobody said anything and fans were flapping about wanting to know what was going on. Seeing as how Dan e-mail Steve on Saturday, they could have calmed things somewhat if they'd posted a quick note on the RT on this day saying "Apologies, there has been an error, please send your discs to us for a replacement.". Instead, there was 3 days of people trying to get replies from an automated e-mail while not knowing if the discs were going to be delayed, recalled or replaced.

Si.

Yes, but it wasn't released until this monday! The information was available on the day of release, as far as I'm aware, which is all that can be expected (again, imo). The vast majority of purchases shouldn't be until that date (and in theory, no purchases should be before then).

[Jon Masters]

I appreciate what many have said about the over-reaction, but at the same time we all know that had such an error occurred in , say, the Transformers DVD not only would there be a national news story about it but they would have pulled out every effort to stop faulty goods going out and replacing them with good stock as soon as possible. The movie companies would insist that they did so, to maintain their reputations.

The niggle is for us as fans is that it appears (a) 2E aren't really that bothered and (b) neither are the BBC.

Yes we're a bunch of nitpicky fans, but I don't recall every hearing about these sorts of faults occurring on other BBC series - that's what makes us perhaps a bit paranoid.

I also don't think the whole' send us your disk back and we'll send another' is really good enough either. Are all shops selling this informing their checkout staff that they need to give people the address ? It would have been far more efficient to delay release, remove all of the faulty stock and replace it with the new stuff. Of course, that would cost 2E a lot of time and money, and badwill with the companies they are supplying. Far easier to do it in the cockhanded way they have done.

My only comfort is that being too poor to buy new releases when they come out, most of these problems are fixed by the time I buy them.

[Si Hunt]

Yes, but it wasn't released until this monday! The information was available on the day of release, as far as I'm aware, which is all that can be expected (again, imo).

It doesn't matter! Answer me this:

Are the fans happy?

If no, then it's 2-Entertain's problem because the fans will be the ones cancelling orders and with dented loyalty to the range. Ignore what any REASONABLE person would expect them to do, all I'm saying is that the fans arn't happy, there are things 2-e could have done to have kept them sweet, and if they'd done that they would be the ones to benefit.

Si.

[Wayne]

Jon has said it all for me really!

[Perry Vale]

The niggle is for us as fans is that it appears (a) 2E aren't really that bothered and (b) neither are the BBC.

I'm really not sure how you come to that conclusion, but as we've said further up, I guess that's down to personal opinion. If 2|e weren't bothered, they wouldn't have gone to the bother of pressing a corrected disc. And how exactly is it anything to do with the BBC?

It would have been far more efficient to delay release, remove all of the faulty stock and replace it with the new stuff. Of course, that would cost 2E a lot of time and money, and badwill with the companies they are supplying. Far easier to do it in the cockhanded way they have done.

How do you know it'd be more efficient? Have you any facts & figures? It was discovered too late in the day, it was too late for a recall, stock had already been delivered and processed & sold by some retailers. And I'd just like to add, working within this industry, that 'recalls' are very rarely well adhered to (as was the case with the missing leaflet with Earthshock).

[Perry Vale]

It doesn't matter! Answer me this:

Are the fans happy?

I already did answer that further up.....

You can't please all the people, all the time, as someone once said.

[SiHart]

It doesn't matter! Answer me this:

Are the fans happy?

If no, then it's 2-Entertain's problem because the fans will be the ones cancelling orders and with dented loyalty to the range. Ignore what any REASONABLE person would expect them to do, all I'm saying is that the fans arn't happy, there are things 2-e could have done to have kept them sweet, and if they'd done that they would be the ones to benefit.

Si.

Yes, they could have done something to keep the fans happy and gained a bit of good PR, but they haven't. They have reacted how most buinesses would react and set up something ready for the day of release. But really Si, as I said before, would you as the spokesman for 2/Entertain really want to go onto a forum full of hostile fans and take the flak? I'd see that as going beyond the call of duty. The fact they emailed Steve Roberts and he was away was unfortunate, but the very fact that they did that is more than you'd get from most companies. I think it's pretty good customer service really.

Yes I know it's annoying. Yes they could have done more, but as far as I can see they've fulfilled their obligations as a company. It's just that some people always want more. It would have been nice yes, but really it's not something we should expect.

Si xx