Rate And Discuss 4.13: Journey's End

[WhiteCrow]

We rewatched this morning - I have to say there are so many moments in there.

The scene where the captured humans are disintegrated as Jacki is only able to save herself is uncomfortable to watch - very unnerving.

And Catherine Tates final scene in the Tardis as her mind starts to fall apart is heartbreaking, when she begs the Doctor to not put her back the way she was before she met him. In a way her punishment reminds me a bit of Jamie and Zoes in the War Games.

It was a difficult scene, and one you can only imagine Catherine Tate having been able to pull off. The combination of Tate and Tennant has been electric this season, and made this by far the best season so far. It's almost tragic the way the era is gone now.

[Dirk Gently]

1/10. If the Doctor sent the regeneration energy into his hand, how come his own body was repaired anyway?

He sent the remaining energy that would have completed his regeneration in to his hand. He used what he needed & then sent the srplus to his hand, he said so quite clearly.

Pulling the Earth across the Universe only generates a slight breeze?

I think you'll find that it was quite clearly mentioned that they had to make sure the atmospheric shell remained in place during the journey. So a 'slight breeze' is actually more than I would expect....but then having never pulled a planet accross the Universe I actually don't know what effect it would have.

[Paul Clement]

I didn't see anyone guessing the resolution to the cliffhanger even though all the clues were there. Then it builds on the cliffhanger and makes it relevant to the story. It's all so brilliantly planned.

I think you need to read the 'Is this the end of the Tenth Doctor' thread, as more than one person guessed the resolution there.

[Carol Baynes]

Well then...

Firstly I'm very surprised by the negative reaction this episode has had from certain quarters. I've been thinking back to other epiodes it resembles like "The Dalek invasion of Earth" or "Frontier in space" (where the Letts era attempted something similarly epic). I can't say I enjoyed "Journey's end" any less. There are a lot of traits shining through that are undoubtedly Russel T. Davies' and I'll admit I don't like them. The seriously dodgy science is one of them. It's been pissing me off since "The end of the world" where I'm supposed to except it's set billions of years in the future and yet everything looks similar. Bollocks obviously, and that distinct lack of imagination can undermine a decent story for me.
Here it's not quite as bad, but the towing the Earth across the galaxies was silly and gratutious, but oddly not as annoying as some RTD ideas.

Anyway, you want to know if I enjoyed it, and largely speaking I DID. But I had a right sobering come down when I logged on here and there's posters who really didn't like it...and I mean REALLY didn't like it! One regular said he's even going off Dr. Who!
Putting it into perspective, it's not the greatest episode of Doctor Who, and as a season finale it feels far clumsier than "Parting of the ways" and "Dommsday". But it's not "The web planet" or "The twin dilemma" either- it was actually quite good in many ways.
Great FX (genarally)... Julian Bleach is a phenomenal Davros, perhaps the best we've had since Wisher. His excited exclamations were genuinely scary. I hope we see him again one day. Dalek Caan was a nice addition and the Supreme Dalek made things more visually exciting.
The guest cast were great, from Micheal Brandon in the first epsisode through to Bernard Cribbins who hasn't had a bad scene all season. Tate has been equally impressive as Donna, and her pairing with the tenth Doctor will be much missed. All the other former companions had something to do, and no one gave a bad turn. Sladen was especially impressive, and the brief Davros/Sarah-Jane 'chat' was very welcome and not at all gratutious.

Tennant, incase no one has noticed, is The Doctor in much the way Pertwee and Tom Baker came to dominate the role. This is not a bad thing in my opinion! If he goes in 2009 we'll have had him for at least four years, and we may yet have him for longer. He has been great this season, and no matter how silly this story got he has given a very engaging and sensitive perfomance, full of reflective moments as well as exuberant 'Doctorisms'.
Some of you still regret Eccleston leaving, and yes, he was good. But I don't think he had the charisma for the role that David has, and continues to have. I don't think he loved the role enough either.

The conclusion for Rose hasn't gone down to well here either, but I thought it was a very touching resolution. She gets her own Doctor, and all is (relatively) well. The words "I love you" (if that was the words) could well make Rose realise the gift she's been given and prompt a kiss. Their last scene together as they look at each other, almost like lovers, but almost like strangers, said a lot to me, and made the scene work. She knows she hasn't got THE Doctor, but it's good enough.

Elsewhere we have silly reality bombs and keys that...well, I've forgotten what they did to be honest, but it was no sillier than removing the Earth's core and turning it into a big spaceship. As Daleks are involved there is almost an inevitability of "Blofeld syndrome". Very cool villiain of course, but your evil plan is bollocks and laughably outragous. At least they tested it first, I thought that was quite practical of them!
So, RTD's idea of science fiction is quite suspect, and no doubt he was channeling the spirit of Terry Nation to ensure this finale was as formularic as the other finales with Daleks in. Maybe he'll join hands and raise Robert Holmes' help next time; he probably wrote the best bits in "Genesis" after all.


So yes, I was a bit dissapointed. But the whole thing seemed like a celebration of RTD's era, and a tying up of various character story threads. It's celebratory nature is actually what made it work for me; and K9 even put in a appearance. Hurrah!

It was exciting and big and bold and I was still rivetted for an hour, even if it didn't always make as much sense as it should.

It was actually a pleasing piece of escapist entertainment.

I'm going to be generous and give it a 9!

[Stuart Wallis]

I allowed myself to get carried away with it and thoroughly enjoyed it. After a few moments I'd forgotten that the cliffhanger resolution was a bit ho-hum and remembered that after a fashion I had seen it coming, so that kept me going for a few minutes. I suppose thinking back, that was the most pointless cliffhanger ever, since we'd been told that the Doctor wasn't going to regenerate just yet anyway three episodes previously, so half a mark off for that. Still, very enjoyable stuff. Davros and DoctorDonna were brilliant, and I'm glad that the ending finished when it did, the emotion was just about to overstay its welcome again though for once it was well-done. I think David Bus was right about RTD clearing the boards companion-wise, I think we could do with a fresh start; I've noticed the Who series by numbers style from RTD, and Mr. Curnow noticed it ages ago.

9.5/10

[Rob McCow]

I think you need to read the 'Is this the end of the Tenth Doctor' thread, as more than one person guessed the resolution there.

Not really - a few people said 'something to do with the hand' but no-one guessed quite how.

Certainly no-one guessed what the consequences would be.

[Stuart Wallis]

And for those of us who are thoroughly sick to death of Rose's infatuation with the Doctor, what a wonderful consequence it brought!

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

I must admit I had mixed feelings after watching it yesterday. I didn't think it was bad but it left me feeling a bit miserable.
I like TV to make me laugh and cry etc, but I'm not so keen when you end up feeling really miserable and have to really do something to cheer yourself up afterwards (listening to the Peter Howell Doctor Who theme very loudly usually does the trick).
So, I thought I'd give it another go and watch it again this morning. I found myself enjoying it a lot more this time around. I was well over three quarters of the way through when I found myself thinking that actually I hadn't seen anything that I didn't like yet.
I think it was just the goodbyes at the end that made me miserable yesterday and having seen them again it didn't seem so bad.
I wasn't convinced by the 2 doctors element yesterday but that seemed ok this morning (it's funny how much can chamge with a second viewing).

Even though I'm not crazy about Murray's music I think there's some good stuff in this episode, While I'm not keen of some of the hap-hazard editing of the music he composed for Dalek/Parting of the ways, I did really like the music during Donna's final TARDIS scene.
It doesn't quite beat the music for Father's day but it's still a good score.

I think it's a pretty good season finale from RTD with all ends tied up neatly. I enjoyed RTD's era for the most part, but like others I hope the Moff changes the format and style of the show - it's been great but it could do with a new approach now.

Yes, there are quibbles, but I can't say that I didn't enjoy the episode and it was great to see so many characters return.....and I was thrilled to see K-9; like others it made me think of Si Hart. It's funny how certain characters from Doctor Who instantly make you think of PS posters: K9=Si hart; Wendy Padbury=Pip Madeley; Peri=Tim Hawtin; Anthony Ainley=Dave Taylor etc and
Andrew Curnow gets a whole story associated with his name!!!!

[Ian Lethbridge-Stewart]

I forgot to say, I voted it 8/10

[Zbigniev Hamson]

He sent the remaining energy that would have completed his regeneration in to his hand. He used what he needed & then sent the srplus to his hand, he said so quite clearly.

He did say so quite clearly, but unfortunately it makes no sense whatsoever. It implies that Timelords decided, for some bizarre reason, to devise a system where a certain amount of energy is supplied (from somewhere) to repair a damaged body and make it perfectly functional again with no side effects, but then choose to use EXTRA energy to then totally redesign the body and cause massive mental trauma for no reason whatsoever. Even if this is some natural process you'd think the Timelords would have enough brains to work a way around that, or at least have the sense to always carry a severed hand around with them, even if they have to chop their OWN off the first time they regenerate to make all future ones smoother.

And as for the Daleks - if they were supposed to be a fully-fledged Dalek Empire capable of anything, and so superior to those in Series 1, then why was it possible to destroy every single one of them by fiddling with some wires and flicking a switch? And it wasn't even done from the Dalek control centre it was done from Davros' PRISON CELL.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Not really - a few people said 'something to do with the hand' but no-one guessed quite how.

Certainly no-one guessed what the consequences would be.

Given the completely bonkers and spurious nature of what actually did happen, and how it stems from no apparent logic that applies to anything in the real world, 'something to do with the hand' is about as close as it was ever realistically possible to guess. I suppose 'something to do with the hand and a load of technobabble' might have been a bit closer

[Milky Tears]

Not really - a few people said 'something to do with the hand' but no-one guessed quite how.

Certainly no-one guessed what the consequences would be.

I bet Nathan would've known. He knows everything.

[Andrew Curnow]

Since we don't actually know any humanoids that can regenerate, it seems a bizarre discussion to be having, but FWIW... The Doctor clearly wasn't hit square on by the Dalek beam (as my littl'un pointed out to me last week, it was a glancing blow on one side only). It seems to have triggered the regenerative process, but equally clearly, why would he want to change everything when only part of him is damaged? I don't see why the notion that he can control or channel that regenerative energy should be such a controversial one - Romana in Destiny could clearly control her regenerations, as could the Master in Utopia (deciding to be a young guy), so this is surely just another manifestation of that. As to why we've never seen it before, well arguably it's because he's always been at death's door and only regenerated as a last resort when, perhaps, his ability to control the change is not at its strongest.

Personally I don't think it's that much of a cop-out, and although yes, it makes that cliffhanger rather weaker when rewatched, that is surely the case of most cliffhangers?

[Andrew Curnow]

Incidentally, rewatching The Stolen Earth on Friday - last week we were saying it was callous of Jack to beam out of Torchwood leaving Ianto & Gwen behind to face the Daleks. However, rewatching it I don't think Jack is aware the Daleks have arrived - Gwen & Ianto have only just discovered it while he's not in the room, and they then purposefully don't tell him because they know he needs to go and find the Doctor for the greater good. It's their own secret self-sacrifice, if you like.

Will Tosh's timelock be conveniently forgotten, though, if any further 'Hub is invaded' plotlines are commissioned in Torchwood?

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Oh and what caused the TARDIS door to shut and lock Donna inside? Was that all part of the magical mystical backwards-in-time ripple effect from creating the new Doctor? Why was she singled out as being so special and having all the timelines converging on her etc when in the end she really wasn't all that special and just borrowed the Doctor's mind for a bit before going back to normal?

[Andrew Curnow]

I've been taking it that it was the TARDIS itself that shut her in, knowing its own survival was about to depend on her.

[Larry]

ISo, I thought I'd give it another go and watch it again this morning. I found myself enjoying it a lot more this time around. I was well over three quarters of the way through when I found myself thinking that actually I hadn't seen anything that I didn't like yet.
I

same with me although I enjoyed it much more on seccond viewing I still have a few niggling points that I'm still not keen on mainly the Doctor/Donna business and then towing the earth across space.

[WhiteCrow]

I've been taking it that it was the TARDIS itself that shut her in, knowing its own survival was about to depend on her.

Actually I thought it's been made clear that Dalek Caan has been manipulating things, causing the Doctor and Donna to keep meeting etc. So I assumed he was behind Donna being shut in the TARDIS.

[WhiteCrow]

This is what it's all about anyway ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7491981.stm

The finale to the latest series of Doctor Who was seen by an average audience of 9.4m people on BBC One.

Thats almost another million on top of Partners in Crime!

This can only be a good thing, so obviously despite peoples generous concern, the viewing public weren't put off last week by the Torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures references from Stolen Earth.

Good ratings help ensure a future for the show, although I'm all too aware of the number of fans who seem keen for a return to the dark ages where the show is off air again. It's return after the hiatus is going to be interesting.

[Si Hunt]

Mike, the tone of your post has more than a hint of "To all the people that didn't like it, you're obviously wrong because it got great ratings", and I'm a bit mystified by your last comment about fans who want it off the air.

I don't think it was a bad episode last night, but it seems clear to me that the episode last week (which was excellent) and the hype generated by its cliffhanger was most responsible for last nights mindblowing figures. After all, people have to largely want to watch a program before it comes on.

Si.

[Alex]

Well I've just watched it again and feel I might have been a bit harsh towards it yesterday, I suppose my expectations were so high that it was almost always going to be a disappointment.

I still feel that the cliffhanger was a cop out, and personally I'm not happy with the resolution to Rose's storyline, but there was an awful lot to like about it too. Julian Bleach was brilliant and I loved Davros' taunting of the Doctor, and there was an awful lot of really fun moments with the various companions - the highlight for me being everyone piloting the Tardis as they tow the earth back, the mix of the music and everyone's excitement makes the scene really work for me.

Again, the plotholes are a bit annoying, but it did feel suitably epic, and I give it 8/10 overall.

[Andrew Curnow]

I think it's got more than a hint of The Five Doctors about it - there's no real reason for everybody to want to get aboard the Dalek ship, and it's very lucky that Jack meets up with Sarah who meets up with Jackie & Mickey; and the Daleks bringing Martha onboard is just convenient, and all that... But for me, last night, it worked as a combination of season finale & 'end of era' celebration. It's not the greatest story ever, but it's cleverly put together so that it kind of hits all the right notes, and feels suitably epic.

And there's something delightfully daft about headlines reading 'David Tennant Doesn't Regenerate' - that happens in every story so far, surely?!

[Wayne]

One regular said he's even going off Dr. Who!

I've got a name you know.
I'm not dreadfully upset by it or anything. It's not as if i'm about to change my name to to Mad Larry Miles. (Even though he makes a couple of points i agree with, but over-inflates things too much, & generally takes 2 hours to say what can be said in 2 minutes.)
Infact to be honest i'd more or less forgotten about it already.
Probably partly because i watched 'The Passion of the Christ' this afternoon. No twee Richard Clayderman prompted 'emotion' there. (Although admittedly, it's not very fair to compare it to a Saturday tea time tv programme with a totally different target audience)

[Captain Tancredi]

I'll start by agreeing with Andrew that there was that kind of Five Doctors-style vibe of having everybody together and a celebration of the series, and with Carol that I think David Tennant is pretty much at the height of his Doctorial powers and moves onto the exalted plateau wih Messrs Pertwee and Baker (T) as the iconic Doctors. Much as it pains me as a Davison man, but then I think that has quite a bit to do with the material Peter Davison was given. In fact, after three or four rickety weeks it's restored a lot of my faith in the revived series.

The trouble, as far as I can see, is that to an extent the love-in overshadowed a lot of the ideas. Things like the Osterhagen Key (while there's a certain logic to UNIT deciding that there might be circumstances in which it would be preferable for the Earth and humanity to be destroyed rather than used by alien invaders to further their plans) never quite took off, neither am I sure that enough was made of the Doctor being stuck between a rock and a hard place when presented with three different get-outs, all of which involve mass destruction, either of the Earth or the Daleks. Perhaps the key contradiction of RTD's Who is that while you can raise all these moral dilemmas, why bother when you can break off to have Catherine Tate doing a funny impression of David Tennant's Doctor. So flawed, but great fun and impossible to actively dislike.

[Carol Baynes]

He did say so quite clearly, but unfortunately it makes no sense whatsoever.

That's "Doctor Who" for you. Sometimes the science is very sketchy, because it's science fiction, and that doesn't always fill you in with a full explanation (often because it can't). Whether that makes it poor science fiction is another argument perhaps. The story doesn't hinge on knowing exactly why.
It makes sense enough in the context of the story. It made sense to my Mum, but she's not a fan the way some of us here are, and won't be losing sleep over it.