Rate And Discuss 4.13: Journey's End

[Dirk Gently]

...and impossible to actively dislike.

Some people are having a good go at 'actively disliking' it.

[Si Hunt]

The scene where all the companions arrived at the Crucible and Davros said something like "and all of you keep quiet" was directed exactly like the "Be silent, all of you. Do not move or speak until I give you leave" bit from "The Five Doctors".

I think I was too harsh last night too, I was just a bit dissapointed after the highs of last week and the expectation of getting a new Doctor of some sort!! I gave it 5/10, on reflection I think now I'd give it a 7.5/10.

Si.

[Wayne]

Some people are having a good go at 'actively disliking' it.

Well, HERE'S one person who liked it. He's watched it 15 times.

[Carol Baynes]

Oh and what caused the TARDIS door to shut and lock Donna inside? Was that all part of the magical mystical backwards-in-time ripple effect from creating the new Doctor? Why was she singled out as being so special and having all the timelines converging on her etc when in the end she really wasn't all that special and just borrowed the Doctor's mind for a bit before going back to normal?

She was special, because she was DONNA with the Doctor's knowledge. Have we really watched the same episode as me?! Her human side combined with The Doctor's mind is what made her save the day.
Fair enough if you didn't like the episode, but it's no wonder if you didn't listen to the dialogue!

[WhiteCrow]

Mike, the tone of your post has more than a hint of "To all the people that didn't like it, you're obviously wrong because it got great ratings"

Nah - that's not so much this episode's detractors, but when surfing through peoples reviews of the whole New Series in general, you get the feeling there are some people who absolutely hate the New Series, think it's a terrible idea, and want the whole thing back off air. And yet they call themselves fans.

But to be honest, I do find some people's absolute negativity towards this current series increasingly tiresome. I'm not talking people who are saying "it's not quite as good as the Chris Ecclestone series", I'm talking people who seem to take so much joy in panning each and every episode you wonder why they're not watching Big Brother repeats instead.

Dunno - maybe I'm regressing this season. I know I was a bit picky on bits of series 3 (before I realised how much I was annoyed by Martha), but I've felt this series has been stronger, and I've also enjoyed it so much more for what it is, rather than for what it wasn't. Probably having a son who is able to verbalise what he enjoys about each episode helps with that.

Y'know I've been a bit annoyed about the cliffhanger too which a lot of people have mentioned. But you have to credit it with this - it's put Doctor Who on the radar, it got ratings up, which can only be good. And for Doctor Who, this week was the equivalent of "who shot JR?".

[SiHart]

All I can say is that I thought it was absolutely fantastic. Sorry to hear others haven't enjoyed it as much as I did. Ah well.

Si xx

[Si Hunt]

I'm of the opinion, generally, that the new series is absolutely superb - it's funny, clever, inventive, brilliantly made and just wonderful.

BUT I do think when you judge it you have to assess it relative to itself. So I agree with you, I don't understand these people who don't watch it, or hate it. Maybe that makes me ignorant of others tastes, but I just think, well, if you like Doctor Who then this is Doctor Who but arguably made excellently. So what's not to like? But that all said, when you watch the new series every week you inevitably will feel dissapointed if one weeks is not as good as the last, or elated if the following weeks is then twice as good again. You base everything within the same relative frame of reference. So I can say that I think "Midnight" was relatively poor, even though had I been shown in five years ago without seeing any of the others I'd probably think it was the best thing ever!

Si.

[WhiteCrow]

Ironically I think I didn't enjoy last weeks episode more than some, but liked this weeks episode more than many.

I think it all comes down to having watched too many Star Trek Next Gen end-of-season two parters. Part 1 would always be more dramatic, because it bigged up an enemy and a situation to a point of "no hope" come the cliff hanger.

Come part 2 some 6 months later, and there's ALWAYS a hand in the jar waiting to get you out of trouble, and the tough enemy in part 1, is reduced to something kind of pathetic in part 2.

Basically though in Journeys End, Davros zapped Donna, and she turned into Data! "Lets get out of this impossible situation with technobabble". She even suffered a neural network cascade failure of sorts!

I guess if you've grown up with both Doctor Who and Star Trek hand in hand, you're used to this kind of resolution.

Anyway good Science Fiction is about elegant and almost simple solutions to technical problems.

Good drama is about human emotive impact.

RTD doesn't write shining Sci-Fi in the sense that Arthur C Clarke did - a Z Neutrino beam focused by 28 planets (I'd have used stars myself, but that would mean no Earth being moved), Sarah Jane's thingy to blow up the crucible, none of it elegant Sci-Fi I'd admit.

But he does write superb drama,
* the slaughter of the human test subjects in the reality bomb test, and Jackie only able to save herself
* Martha having to choose whether to sacrifice planet Earth to save the rest of reality
* Sarah Jane/Captain Jack's willingness to sacrifice themselves
* Davros taunting the Doctor
* the whole mirror image of the Timelord Doctor, and the Human Doctor, who is that little bit more ruthless
* the price Donna has to pay. The slow collapse of her mind, and he pleading not to have everything taken away from her.
* "For one brief moment she was the most important woman in the Universe" / "She still is - she's my daughter" / "Then why don't you tell her". Surely one of the best scenes ever written - if it was in a soap opera it'd get awards.
* the Doctor, on his own again.

All great drama moments. Yeah there were lots of fun fan moments - 8 people on the TARDIS, K9, German Daleks - but the episode hung together not on the fun or the science, but on the drama.

[Wayne]

Has anyone mentioned Donna's ring yet?

The one on her finger that is. They seemed to make a point of it glinting at us at the end.
Perhaps it's a sign we may we her again sometime. Or probably i'm reading things into it out of wishful thinking.

[Si Hunt]

Continuing on from my 'relative' thing, I really do disagree strongly with the people who said this was the strongest finale yet. I thought "Doomsday" was awesome in the way I was hoping last nights would be; it took you on an emotional rollercoaster, edge of the seat drama followed by a bit of a heartbreaking end and then a sorrowful goodbye followed by a nice unexpected shock at the end.

Si.

[Alex]

I've been wondering about the ring thing, as they clearly deliberately lingered on it in a few shots, but a quick comparison between it and the one from the final moments of S.3 suggest it's not the same.



Plus it'd be a bit of a stretch for the character to not only be DoctorDonna, but also the Master at a possible later date. And also, if she couldn't contain the essence of a timelord once, why would she be able to do it another time? And bringing back the character would really lessen the effect of Donna having her memory wiped and essentially becoming crap again too.

That all said, I never thought they'd ruin the poignancy of Rose's final moments in Doomsday, so it may well happen.

[WhiteCrow]

That all said, I never thought they'd ruin the poignancy of Rose's final moments in Doomsday, so it will may well happen.

I'll agree it has become almost on a par with one of those awful American daytime soaps you see mocked so badly ...

"Doctor I love you so!"

"Rose, you know you and I can never be together!"

"I will just make out with your identical twin half-brother instead then."

[Wayne]

And also, if she couldn't contain the essence of a timelord once, why would she be able to do it another time? And bringing back the character would really lessen the effect of Donna having her memory wiped and essentially becoming crap again too.

It kinda rings a bell with 'Human Nature' to me. I reckon they've left it open to bring her back if they want to. (Hopefully)

[Martin Penny]

I enjoyed it, but would tend to agree with the majority that it was a bit of a let down.

For me, the whole episode was made by Julian Bleach as Davros, and, had he not appeared, I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much. He was simply brilliant, and I think he's my favourite actor to have played the role. I was really hoping he would actually accept the Doctors help at the end...I wish they had made it clear that he escaped, as I'd love to see him again(preferably in a big finish style-Dalek-less story).

[Alex]

Well yeah, I imagine they may well do so, I guess a lot of it will now depend on how Moffat feels about the character, plus his take on the new series in general.

I fall in to the I hope she doesn't return camp though, she wasn't as bad as I feared she might be but ultimately had too many annoying shouty moments for me, and I never really warmed to the character and feel I've seen enough of her - the same applies with Martha too, though that's more to Freema's average acting skills than the character itself which showed a lot of potential at the beginning (all imo of course).

[Wayne]

For me, the whole episode was made by Julian Bleach as Davros, and, had he not appeared, I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much. He was simply brilliant

I thought he was excellent too, but i can't help but wish he'd appeared in a story where he'd been able to play a bigger & more active, integral role, instead of being rather marginalized by everything & the kitchen sink.

[Jason Thompson]

Another thought that occurred to me today:

At the end fo The Parting Of The Ways everything seems hopeless untill...

Rose absorbs the power of the vortex, which allows her to destroy all the Daleks everywhere with just a thought. But there's a price: she saves the day but the power is killing her and the Doctor has to take it away to stop her mind burning up.

At the end of Journey's End, everything seems hopeless until...

Donna absorbs the regenration energy and gets a Time Lord mind, which allows her to operate a machine to destroy all the Daleks everywhere with just a flick of a switch. But there's a price: she saves the day but the knowledge is killing her and the Doctor has to take it away to stop her mind burning up.

[Dirk Gently]

Jason! Are you suggesting that R.T.D recycles plots!? How scandalous.

[Jon Masters]

Anyway good Science Fiction is about elegant and almost simple solutions to technical problems.

Good drama is about human emotive impact.

RTD doesn't write shining Sci-Fi in the sense that Arthur C Clarke did - a Z Neutrino beam focused by 28 planets (I'd have used stars myself, but that would mean no Earth being moved), Sarah Jane's thingy to blow up the crucible, none of it elegant Sci-Fi I'd admit.

But he does write superb drama,......

........the episode hung together not on the fun or the science, but on the drama.

I haven't edited your post in a naughty way, but to just highlight what I have a real problem with, and its one we've battered around before - the idea that its somehow mutually impossible to have good Sci-Fi and good drama at the same time, that the idea that a solid plot somehow destroys any chance of characters engaging with their surroundings on an emotional level and demonstrating how they would cope with it.

Its not impossible - RTD has proved it himself (I'd pick Gridlock as a good example) - but this was, for me, such a stupendous let down that I just can't bring myself to care about all the companion-focus stuff when the story (not the plotline, not the science, just the story) was so wilfully neglected.

At times it felt like a round robin story - everyone gets to contribute something their character would like to do, and the whole purpose of the episode is to jump from one 'star scene' to the next. Its something I loathe in RTD's writing but at least he usually makes some effort to link the scenes together. This time, there was nothing - no development, no carrying forward of ideas, just a magic wand that waves us along in fits and starts.

Here's two bits of evidence I'd like to back it up with

I watched with my kids. One is a clever 8 year old who loves DW, hasn't seen much of the Classic series, has seen all of the New Series, reads his DWA every week and knows a scary amount of info from it off by heart. The other is 6, and tends not to watch unless he's engaged in the story.

About 20 minutes in - both were bored. I mean jumping around, not watching at all bored. There was the odd cheer - Davros, K9, but for the most part they were lost and couldn't care less what was happening.

The second - try to summarise the story in about 6 sentences (or 12 for the 2 episodes) - I could do it for every other New Series story , but not a hope for this one.

You can pick out as many favourite moments as you like, but if there's no story it becomes like a GCSE lit exercise - all metaphor and post-modern but no substance. You'd never say that about any of the previous 3 season endings, nor the 5 doctors, or any other story you want to compare it to.

[Brian]

I loved it.... it just wasn't quite what I was expecting.

To have the regeneration drama sorted so flippantly really fell flat with me, I'm not sure why.

On a serious note though it really brought home to me just how important Donna's granddad has been for bringing through the emotion of this series.
I really hope he's still involved in episodes to come.

[Anthony Williams]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed by that.

There were moments of brilliance (Julian Bleach as Davros, K9 showing up, Jackie having to leave the group of humans to be erased from time, Bernard Cribbins), but unfortunately there were just too many moments where it fell flat.

I know that it's been a constant bug-bear of mine, but to me, Rose was the biggest problem with it all. She showed herself to be a whiny, spoilt brat. Breaking down the walls between dimensions, even though she knew that she could destroy the whole of reality in the process. Even when she gets her own, human version of the Doctor, she still acts like a spoilt child when the real Doctor has to go off without her. I'm afraid that her frankly unlikeable character tainted the story for me. Plus, I can't help but feel that RTD put in the whole snogging scene to make it "controversial" and to antagonise the fans.

However, that wasn't my only problem with the story. The fact that it makes little sense was a major problem, too. It was never actually explained just why the Daleks wanted to destroy everything, and that notion makes little sense (although extremely xenophobic, surely the Daleks would get bored without lesser species to invade and wipe-out?). The whole cack with the hand was just plain silly (although I guessed it was coming).

Finally, I really disliked the way that Donna was left. Yes, it was emotional, but it was just cruel. I just can't help but feel that the knowledge that as far as Donna's concerned, none of Season 4 (or, indeed, The Runaway Bride) ever happened, will somewhat spoil re-watching it.

I really, really tried not to get my hopes up over this finale (especially following last year's poor showing), but I couldn't help myself, and Russell T. Davies once again disappointed. I just hope that Steven Moffat's Who will deliver in the future.

4/10 (but only because of the general superbness of Davros, K9, Captain Jack, Jackie Tyler and Mickey!)

Ant x

[Rob McCow]

The guys at www.sfx.co.uk are a bunch of moaning fanboys and their magazine is well past it's best:

For a litmus test for how much you're going to love "Journey's End" look no further than a scientifically rubbish scene of the TARDIS towing the Earth back home. If, while your brain is telling you, "This is crap!" your heart is still doing backflips then it's your kind of episode. "Journey's End" is almost a two fingers up at technobabble; there's certainly tons of it in the episode, but it's largely irrelevant. If you even tried to follow the pseudo-science you were onto a loser. Plotholing is pointless, because anything that isn't explained presumably could have been explained away with even more "fuzzy magic". But as with many of RTD's Who scripts, this was an episode where emotion was everything, and if you didn't love the sheer rush of all our heroes saving the world in the most ludicrous manner... your loss.

The plot does hang together, but only just, with blu-tack coincidences and sticky-back explanations straining to contain everything. There are certainly too many plot strands and a couple of unnecessary guest characters, meaning that some areas of the script are left underdeveloped. But Russell knows that you can't just have crash, bang, wallop action throughout, and once again, the best scenes are the poignant ones, where characterisation comes to the fore: Donna's heartrending fate; Davros gloating over the Doctor's despair; the bittersweet irony of Rose getting her man, while the Doctor doesn't dare stick with his woman.

And there are plenty of adrenaline-rush sequences (German Daleks flying through dark forests), fan-pleasing continuity references (Sarah and Davros) uplifting moments (K9) and humour (Tennant's and Tate's impressions of each other) to balance the sadness. Oh, and a naked Doctor, for those who like that kind of thing.

It's slightly disappointing that the regeneration was only into a second Tennant. It would have been great to have a "red herring" Doctor - a known actor coming in for one episode to play an alternate tenth Doctor. Imagine the Tennant Doctor telling Rose she has to go back to her alternate world with a Warren Clarke-shaped Doctor to look after: "What - it wasn't my intelligence you were attracted to?"

Also disappointing that there was no cliffhanger into the Christmas special - but maybe that's because they've become a bit of a cliche. Or maybe there needs to be a lapse in time before the next Christmas special for plot reasons. Or maybe it's because it needed to be reinforced that the Doctor's on his own now, in which case a more definitive final shot would have been appreciated; the episode really does feel like it fizzles out with even the music seeming to cut off half-way through a theme.

The Daleks weren't at their best, either. Cannon fodder mostly, though Davros was once again excellent. But wouldn't it have good if the Doctor asked, "So, when you've destroyed the whole of reality - what next?" Won't they get a little bored? As schemes go, it's a bit over-the-top. Surely enslaving the universe is more the Daleks' style?

But all these niggles are just that - niggles. They will be insurmountably irritating to people who like their SF more watertight and that's fair enough. Russell's version of Doctor Who by its very nature will not appeal to everyone. But if you can rediscover that childlike sense of wonder and suspend your sense of logic in a relaxing bubble bath of disbelief, "Journey's End" is big, brash, cheeky, heartfelt, witty, fun and touching slice of scientific fancy. It's not perfect, but an SFX five-star review has never meant perfect. It just means exceptional. And in so many ways that count, that's what "Journey's End" is.

Amazingly, this is the sixth straight classic episode in a row. Has Doctor Who ever had such a great run? And can it ever be as good again? Mr Moffat has a tough act to follow. Then again, he was a major factor in that six-episode run.

[Si Hunt]

Why do you object to that review Steve? It does call it a "classic episode". Personally I agree with all their points, apart maybe from the bit about scientific accuracy (which I don't care about; no-one cared when the TARDIS towed a bus in "Delta"; it's a flying police box for goodness sake!) and the Daleks being underused (they were fine). Everything else is fair cop, especially the ending being a bit of a damp squib, which I felt too. They give it a good rating overall though.

Si.

[Paul Monk]

I really loved it! Sure you could say it was unoriginal, full of technobabble, recycled more plots than Bob the Builder recycles building stuff, and too crowded and self referential but I was caught up in it completely. It was a fantastic roller coaster ride, so much so that I didn't care when the video stopped recording cos the episode was longer than usual.
I'm sure that the law of diminishing returns will reply massively to this episode but for me it worked wonderfully in as a crazy in the moment thrill ride.

Also did anyone else feel that it was the end of an era ? It felt like Russell's swansong, pretty much tying up all of the things he's put in place and introduced since the series began. I wonder if the Christmas one will feel a bit like a clean slate?

[SiHart]

I thought the end of Donna's story was really tragic. Like that of Jamie of Zoe, it's awful to have all those experiences taken away from you. You only have to look at her at the end of the story, back to the Donna we saw during The Runaway Bride to see how much she's grown over the course of the season. Having all that removed, wiped clean is an awful way to end your time on the TARDIS. I thought that was really, really sad.

Personally, I think this is the season ending I've liked most so far. I can understand why those of you who didn't like it didn't, but for me it worked really well and aside from Donna being reset, the Earth was left damaged (and with little/ no military forces left) and they can't pretend this didn't happen. I hope that is built on, not forgotten in the future.

As it is, like someone else said above, this really feels like the end of the RTD series- it's tied up some of the loose ends and it really feels as if we never need to see Rose or Martha or their families again. Their stories in Doctor Who finally feel finished. Let's hope so, eh?

I reall thought for one minute Bernard Cribbins was going to join the Doctor on a journey for a bit. That would have been brilliant!

Now I just hope for some good specials from RTD before he bows out, leaving all this behind.

Si xx