Did we see the birth of the Valeyard?

[WhiteCrow]

Ever since we saw the Valeyard in Trial of a Timelord, the very idea of him has been an interesting one, a darker version of the Doctor.

With Chris Ecclestones era, and becoming more and more so under David Tennant, there is a darker side that is slowly bubbling up in the performances. As with what Donna says, "sometimes you need someone to stop you". And in the wonderful Human Nature/Family of Blood, we got a vision of what an avenging Doctor could look like, and why indeed he's the stuff monsters have nightmares about.

The new "Half Doctor" who surfaced within Journeys End seems that step darker still. More in touch with his emotions, capable of telling Rose what the real Doctor couldn't - but what about his anger?

I don't think we'll ever see the Valeyard in the New Series, as it's not really as mainstream a character as say the Master or Davros.

But I think we saw a tantelising fan morsel that the Half Doctor could easily turn into the Valeyard or a Valeyard-like nemesis if Rose fails to sort him out (even if it doesn't quite match what was said in Trial).

[Dirk Gently]

Did we see the birth of the Valeyard?

No.

[Larry]

have to be honest the Valeyard certainly did cross my mind and it would make perfect sense as to where he came from rather than it actually being The Doctor turning into him.

I don't think we'll ever see the Valeyard in the New Series, as it's not really as mainstream a character as say the Master or Davros.

probably not but I think Moffat, is one writter who could definitely write a good story for The Valeyard and make him an even darker character from the one we saw in TOATL.

[Milky Tears]

I think Tim has nailed it.

[WhiteCrow]

probably not but I think Moffat, is one writter who could definitely write a good story for The Valeyard and make him an even darker character from the one we saw in TOATL.

Moffat could write a story about the Easter Bunny which would have you s**ting you pants. I don't think there's a story he couldn't do.

[Llordllama]

I did wonder about this too, but would be happier if we could put a lid on the old two-way door between parallel universes now...

[Perry Vale]

the very idea of him has been an interesting one, a darker version of the Doctor.

Speak for yourself! I thought it was one of the very worst ideas of the whole 26 years run.

But as to the question of the thread, no.

[Si Hunt]

It's a good idea, but how could the alt-10th Doctor turn into the Valeyard? For one thing, he doesn't look like Michael Jayston and can't regenerate. For another, the Valeyard is supposed to exist between the 12th and final incarnations, not the 10th and 11th. So he's two Doctors out.

Si.

[NorthernStar]

It's a good idea, but how could the alt-10th Doctor turn into the Valeyard? For one thing, he doesn't look like Michael Jayston and can't regenerate. For another, the Valeyard is supposed to exist between the 12th and final incarnations, not the 10th and 11th. So he's two Doctors out.

Si.

He assumes he can't regenerate, being half human, but who knows?

I'd really like to see Mike's idea make it to screen as it really does fit. And the thought of the Doctor going up against himself at some point in the future....

[shada pavlova]

Yeah, but that can't work, s David Tennant's quitting after 2009, so he won't be able to play either Doctor if that were to happen.

Unless "evil" doctor discovered how to artificially regenerate himself at the cost of his sanity or something.

[Logo Polish]

He's not even supposed to be all that evil anyway, just a bit more embittered, closer to how Eccleston was in Rose, as the Doctor describes.

I just find this a really bizarre idea which is almost totally unsupported by anything on screen and involves making so many jumps of logic that you might as well suggest Castellan Kelner could have been Susan.

[Jon Masters]

so many jumps of logic that you might as well suggest Castellan Kelner could have been Susan.

That's rubbish. When Kelner last regenerated he got an eye gouged out by a vicious gumblejack, but it was within 12 hours, so killing the fish he retrieved the eye and kept in in his pocket along with his security balls ( stop it ).

When he next regenerated unfortunately he forgot his eye was in his pocket, and some of the regeneration energy created a second Kelner, but with human characteristics. Embarassed, he dumped his alter ego in a space rocket and sent him to Kraal space.

Unfortunately, the Kelner copy had his memories of the originally fishy accident, and from then on believed that he had only one eye.

(RTD, eat your heart out )

[WhiteCrow]

The thing is with the Human Doctor (as I think people have settled on calling him), is that no, he's not evil as he is now.

But despite being the Doctor, how he acted was very different - basically seeing a problem, he knew the Daleks couldn't be reasoned with, and so took action without a second thought.

It's a constant theme under Tennant, a kind of dual theme, "I have to give them a chance" but also (darkly) "no second chances".

The altruistic nature of the Timelord Doctor is he'll put himself into harm to give anyone that chance, even the Master or Davros. Perhaps because he's mortal, the Human Doctor didn't (he didn't give a second thought to saving Davros either).

It's possibly the heart of what makes the Doctor who he is, without it you've got something a little less kind, a little less compassionate.

It made me wonder, what would the New Series have been like with the Human Doctors attitude?

Here are some of how I'd see the episodes ending differently ...

* The Sontaran ship would have been remotely exploded in the Poison Sky
* Cobb might have been killed in the Doctors Daughter for killing the Doctors Daughter
* Would the Human Doctor have pushed Sky Silvestry out?
* And going back all the way to Parting of the Ways, given the way the Human Doctor doesn't seem to hesitate, I'm sure he'd have used the Delta Wave, even knowing it'd kill the enhabitents of planet Earth

Anyway - all these aspects of the Doctor - the Human Doctor, the Valeyard, they hold up a kind of "what if" mirror to the Doctor, which is at the heart of good Sci-Fi drama.

[Andrew Curnow]

Somewhat tangentially, I always like to think that part of the reason the seventh Doctor started to actively seek out and wipe out such evils as the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Gods of Rrrrrrragnarok, Fenric, et al was that he was sorting out his affairs - that is to say, having seen the future he knew that a day would come when he was no longer one of the good guys, and so he set out to get rid of these evils once and for all, so that the universe would be safe from them come the day when the Doctor wasn't there to save the day.

And of course, the irony would be that setting out to 'cold-bloodedly' commit genocide on the Daleks, for example, could well be the sort of action that sets him on the road to one day becoming the Valeyard.

Sometimes I have too much time on my hands...

But is the human tenth Doctor the Valeyard? No!!!!

[WhiteCrow]

Somewhat tangentially, I always like to think that part of the reason the seventh Doctor started to actively seek out and wipe out such evils as the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Gods of Rrrrrrragnarok, Fenric, et al was that he was sorting out his affairs - that is to say, having seen the future he knew that a day would come when he was no longer one of the good guys, and so he set out to get rid of these evils once and for all, so that the universe would be safe from them come the day when the Doctor wasn't there to save the day.

And of course, the irony would be that setting out to 'cold-bloodedly' commit genocide on the Daleks, for example, could well be the sort of action that sets him on the road to one day becoming the Valeyard.

Nice theory.

[FlyingBeastie]

Moffat could write a story about the Easter Bunny which would have you s**ting you pants. I don't think there's a story he couldn't do.

I nearly fell out of my seat with that one...cos' it's true

I'd LOVE to see the Valeyard again, I actually do think he's mainstream enough to come back yet still not known that well so it'd be enough of a shock to the new viewers.

I think Moffat would bring him back cos' it seems Moffat is more in touch with 80's Who (Davison, Colin Baker) So I do think the Valeyard will come back.

But this Doctor isn't him.

What RTD did in this season finale is give Moffat a clean slate. All of RTD's characters have their stories closed and are on their merry way. So I doubt the Human Doctor is the Valeyard especially since he's supposed to be the Doctor's final incarnation who has run out of his regenerations.

[shada pavlova]

Anyway - all these aspects of the Doctor - the Human Doctor, the Valeyard, they hold up a kind of "what if" mirror to the Doctor, which is at the heart of good Sci-Fi drama.

Listen to the Doctor Who: Unbound audios. They do exactly that.

In one of them the actual central theme is What if...The Valeyard had won?

[Perry Vale]

especially since he's supposed to be the Doctor's final incarnation who has run out of his regenerations.

He's not though, he's supposed to be "somewhere between the 12th & 13th regenerations", or something. Which is frankly a stupid idea that makes no sense at all, imo.

[Si Hunt]

It's a poetic idea, rather than a logical one, and is open to interpretation. It could mean he's a parallel Universe Doctor that branches off after the Doctors 12th regeneration, that he's an alternate 13th Doctor, or perhaps a "Watcher" for the 12th Doctor who somehow gained independent existence and stayed corporeal alongside the regeneration he was supposed to give way for.

Si.

[shada pavlova]

Well, when the TV series gets to the 13th Doctor, let's see if they remember the Valeyard.

[Perry Vale]

when the TV series gets to the 13th Doctor

If!

[Perry Vale]

It's a poetic idea

Poetic isn't the word I'd use. Lazy, perhaps.

[Paul Monk]

The trouble with the Valeyard is that its all very vague as to what exactly he is. Basically he seems like he was quite hastily written and his background was changed somewhat in the pre-production of Trial. So someone would have to properly explain him before he could be re-used again and I think that would be quite faffy.
As Perry says, as he stands the Valeyard is a creation that doesn't really make a lot of sense.

[SiHart]

I did read somewhere (or maybe it was on the JNT memoirs we've just listened to) that the original idea was that The Valeyard would be the Doctor's final incarnation (or at least a version of him) who had turned bad. This idea was vetoed and the issue got muddied up a bit so he became the amalgamtion of the darker sides of the Doctor's nature somewhere between the 12th and final incarnation. Just goes to show what turmoil the show was in at the time that nothing clear got through to the screen.

Si xx

[Rob McCow]

"I'm sorry Rose. I have to go back to the other Universe so that I can put my sixth incarnation on trial for what he did to the Vervoids. It's been ... eating away at me for so long now. Every time I hear someone say Demeter Seed I get a sick feeling in my stomach. It's time to put my past and my future to rest. Just one question though - did you find a Modem when you visited Megabyte Electronics?"