The Runaway Bride - your thoughts?

[The Secretive Bus]

I'm no expert on OFAH, but probably the special I'm most familiar with is Jolly Boys Outing, which is just a succession of unconnected events and incidents isn't it, with an unsignposted reunion with Raquel at the end to keep it going for another half hour. It's a gloriously enjoyable episode, don't get me wrong, but it's not as elaborate a plot as you get in many a half-hour normal episode.

I've seen it before but can't remember much about it. I expect SiHunt would be able to give a more informed opinion than either of us!

[Carol Baynes]

Is yous dissin' Donna, Wayne?!

I really liked it, actually. I've just seen the BBC3 repeat and enjoyed it a lot more (especially as my nephew wasn't interupting me this time ) There was some very good dialogue in it, I thought, although I still think the plot was on the weak side. That's where I wouldn't compare it to the likes of "Raiders of the lost Ark", especially as "Raiders.." has a fantastic story! But I'd agree that it's just as enjoyable.

I like the clip of the black dalek with the old '...doo-doo doo-doo doo-doo...' sound effect. But, what is that noise? Is it the daleks' central heating system or something?

[Wayne]

Is yous dissin' Donna, Wayne?!

No! (See my last sentence)

[Carol Baynes]

I don't know why I bother with emoticons!

[Larry]

just thought of some thing if that hole went right to the Earths core then dose this not contradict the events of Inferno...

[Ralph]

I don't know if it's OK to be on this site and say I wasn't excited by this....

[Captain Tancredi]

just thought of some thing if that hole went right to the Earths core then dose this not contradict the events of Inferno...

Actually, if we're draining the Thames down there, that puts us more into Underwater Menace territory...

[Si Hunt]

I expect SiHunt would be able to give a more informed opinion than either of us!

You're both right - "The Jolly Boys Outing" IS a plotless series of set-pieces, and in fact is more like three episodes glued together. However, most of the longer episodes (meaning the Christmas ones) are very well plotted - "To Hull and Back" has a wonderful plot with a lovely twist at the end, for example. I would have liked a better story, even if it wasn't a more complex one.

The music I found a bit intrusive too. There was a bit where the Doctor was just going up a ladder and Murray was crashing away and I just thought "I wish this scene was silent, it would be soooo much better!". And I wish those new fangled camera crashes wern't there - I feel like someone has grabbed my neck and is shaking me continuously when I watch new Who sometimes.

Si.

[Jim]

I thought it was miles better than last year. The plot was hard to fathom and I suppose that might have frustrated some of the audience - there were a few scratches of heads in my house. Maybe he needs to raise his game on that front next year - but as expected the sheer entertainment of it won everyone over. The visuals, including the chase were faultless, it was bloody funny (script far more engaging that the last special) The put downs about pringles and germany were cruel but funny, as was the sequence Donna was stalking the guy to marry. The kids had a fab looking monster and they probably didn't mind about motive - we knew she was a wrong'un.

Its taken me a while to warm to DT but I thought he was exceptional in this -watch him at the disco, from the doors of the Tardis looking out, the final scene - FAB. The whole way Rose was handled was great and moving without appearing tacked on. I thought Donna would be generally curious about the whole relationship in order to understand more about the Doc (its the only time he gave much away) - so I didnt find it odd she went on about Rose. Catherine herself was good enough, far better second half.

Fluffy but fab!

[Perry Vale]

Just watched it for the second time......

Good things:

The TARDIS chase scene.
The creation of Earth scene.
Catherine Tate.
"...Gallifrey."

Bad Things:

The plot, totally unengaging & dull.
The dodgy CSO shot in the basement.
The music, it was too LOUD!

69%.

Enjoyed the S3 trailer (not as much as last year's though), can't wait to see even more shots/scenes of Tennant gurning & screaming "Noooooooo!!!!!".

[Carol Baynes]

I'm with Jim on this one- Tennant was great in this. Loved his introspective moment near the bar (thinking of losing Rose) and his exchanges with Donna. Is it just me, or does Tennant's Dcotor have some traits in common with McCoy- there's that darker, subversive edge under the joker's facade.

[Paul Clement]

Enjoyed the S3 trailer (not as much as last year's though), can't wait to see even more shots/scenes of Tennant gurning & screaming "Noooooooo!!!!!".

The S3 trailer was the most underwhelming part of the whole early evening. I just sat there thinking, 'well, the third season looks bloody boring', nothing grabbed my attention and made me think I'd really like to see it, the way the S2 trailer did with snippets of Tooth and Claw etc...

[The Secretive Bus]

Is it just me, or does Tennant's Dcotor have some traits in common with McCoy- there's that darker, subversive edge under the joker's facade.

Difficult to say. The 10th Doctor is still being written as veering between "Wa-heyyyyy, everything's GRRRREAT!" and "I'm moody and serious, me," with no middle ground. I find him very engaging when I'm watching him but afterwards I think "There's still not much to him..."

None of this is a slight against Tennant, though his "angry" moments are still a bit forced. I'm convinced he could be playing a better Doctor than he is now if he was allowed to tone down the wacky stuff. Not saying he's a bad Doctor at all, just he could do so much better.

[Stuart Wallis]

Festive fluff, basically, but in a nice way really. I was glad in the end that Donna stayed at home, because she was either very sympathetic or incredibly shouty.

It was a good thing really that the scale was smaller than TCI, because it's going to be a strain on whoever's in charge to keep coming back and topping the special every year. It wasn't quite as dramatic as last year, but for regular viewers at least, the last year or so have had a new Doctor, SJS, K9, Impossible Planet, Daleks v. Cybermen... Even those just tuning in got a bit of fun with the flying TARDIS and a whizzo monster to keep them amused, even if Sarah Parish did insist on chewing the set and yelling "My children!!!! ad nauseam.

It didn't bother me either way about not seeing the rest of the rachnoss. The destruction of the Empress' ship was fantastic. Also on the effects front, who was it said a couple of pages ago that the Empress was done by model work? Best I've seen in a long while - I'd have sworn it was CGI!

And I'm glad I'm not alone in one thing - RTD was right - it's not the Ice Warriors. I wonder if Douglas Adams and John Lloyd's The Meaning of Liff has a word for the moment you go from thinking "! Daleks again!" to " ! Daleks again!"?

[Larry]

The S3 trailer was the most underwhelming part of the whole early evening. I just sat there thinking, 'well, the third season looks bloody boring', nothing grabbed my attention and made me think I'd really like to see it, the way the S2 trailer did with snippets of Tooth and Claw etc...

perhaps we have been so spoilt in the last two years we are now becoming complacent in our expectations of each series..

[The Secretive Bus]

perhaps we have been so spoilt in the last two years we are now becoming complacent in our expectations of each series..

Oh come on, now! A trailer is meant to excite - that's its very purpose! To get you interested! If it doesn't do that then it's failed, and you can't blame viewers with "complacent expectations"!

[Si Hunt]

I just watched it again and managed to locate the six seconds that explain the whole plot, such as it was i.e why Donna and her particles were needed to free the Racnos. It happens when the Doctor is trying to open the door and Donna is kidnapped. Not only is it quick, but half the dialogue is inaudible and Donna being snatched distracts you from listening to it anyway.

But apparently, the particles in Donna are living huon particles, whereas the ones in the Earth's core are dead, so the living ones are needed to "activate" the dead ones (or something).

Quite how the particles got into the Earth's core in the first place, or why the Empress put her children down there, or what she's been up to all this time, or how she escaped if she was with them, or where all that fire came from, or why the children simply failed to appear at the end, or where that tank came from so suddenly, or why Torchwood were creating liquid huon particles at all, or where the Torchwood personnel doing this had got to, or how the Empress found out about it, or why there were huon particles in the TARDIS, is anyone's guess.

The plot didn't make any sense at all.

Si.

[Paul Clement]

or why Torchwood were creating liquid huon particles at all, or where the Torchwood personnel doing this had got to,

I got the impression that after Torchwood was destroyed, somebody else started using the base for their operations and that was at the behest of the Rachnoss. I don't think it was meant to be Torchwood who were creating the Huon particles at all.

[Si Hunt]

But didn't the Doctor say that it was? And if it wasn't "Torchwood", who was it? And where were they?

Si.

[Pip Madeley]

Quite how the particles got into the Earth's core in the first place, or why the Empress put her children down there, or what she's been up to all this time, or how she escaped if she was with them, or where all that fire came from, or why the children simply failed to appear at the end, or where that tank came from so suddenly, or why Torchwood were creating liquid huon particles at all, or where the Torchwood personnel doing this had got to, or how the Empress found out about it, or why there were huon particles in the TARDIS, is anyone's guess.

The plot didn't make any sense at all.

The Empress transmatted herself back to the spaceship, but then got blown up anyway.

But thank goodness someone's being honest about the plot being complete bobbins! And I agree about the over-use of music, particularly the ladder bit. Silence is just as effective, even more so sometimes.

[Jason Thompson]

Yes, the plot was a load of old cobblers. Why are there huon particles in the heart of the TARDIS if the Time Lords got rid of them all because they were deadly? How does a building's lower basement manage to stretch all the way under the Thames and then have a ladder that can apparently be scaled in seconds that actually goes all the way to the top of the flood barrier buildings? Those things are not small!

As episodes go, it was probably the weakest of the lot. A decidedly un-special Christmas special. The Christmas Invasion may have had a minimal plot, but at least it made sense and there was the whole business with the new Doctor to keep the interest.

[Si Hunt]

Pip, I actually meant how did she escape when the Earth was being formed. If her children hibernated at the centre of the forming planet, where was she? What has she been doing all these billions of years?

Si.

[Pip Madeley]

Pip, I actually meant how did she escape when the Earth was being formed. If her children hibernated at the centre of the forming planet, where was she? What has she been doing all these billions of years?

Si.

Ahhh. Well there you go, yet another hole.

[Andrew Curnow]

I don't want to be an all-defensive, "it makes perfect sense" Who fan, but I do think we're being a bit harsh aren't we. Playing Devil's Advocate for a minute, I don't think there were any plot holes as such were there?

Quite how the particles got into the Earth's core in the first place, or why the Empress put her children down there, or what she's been up to all this time, or how she escaped if she was with them, or where all that fire came from, or why the children simply failed to appear at the end, or where that tank came from so suddenly, or why Torchwood were creating liquid huon particles at all, or where the Torchwood personnel doing this had got to, or how the Empress found out about it, or why there were huon particles in the TARDIS, is anyone's guess.

Isn't it the case that the huon particles are in the Empress' children, who are (after however many billions of years they've been in the centre of the Earth) now fully grown, but still dormant. One assumes they were put in the centre of a new planet as the ultimate place to hide from the Timelords who had (all but) wiped them out (shades of the Time War, incidentally, with the Empress of the Rachnoss in the role here of the Emperor in TPOTW). She survived as the last of her race (again, shades of TPOTW) biding her time somewhere out in the universe until her children were ready.

I don't really think it fails to hang together all that badly. As for the huon particles, I took it that the Empress took advantage of the fall of Torchwood to use their company's secret lab to develop huon particles - Torchwood may have been making them themselves for some reason, but I assumed that it was more their facilities that the Empress took over, not their particular research.

Why didn't the children appear? I found that disappointing on a visual level, yes, but in 'narrative' terms, it's probably a long way to climb from the centre of the Earth! And in production terms, I'm assuming that either time or money prohibited it.

Anyway, I think the most important question of the evening is... did I hear the Doctor mention 'chronons' in his initial examination of Donna? In which case, is RTD a fan of Time and the Rani?

[Si Hunt]

I guess that all makes a kind of sense Andrew, but it struck me as very hard to follow and I still think it was a mistake to bury the line explaining how Donna had any relevence to anything at all in a difficult-to-hear six seconds that was so easily missed.

I still enjoyed this more than "The Christmas Invasion" and I loved the chase at the beginning to death. But the two Christmas Specials are easily my two least-favourite New Series episodes to date. I kind of enjoyed TRB at the time, but it just falls to bits if you think of it afterwards - a convoluted plot that's breathlessly reeled out in dialogue rather than played out and hardly any memorable characters scuppered things for me. It may have been exactly what was required on Christmas Day, but I like my stories to HAPPEN, not to just be a lot of backstory gradually fed out. As with last year, nothing actually happened, the Doctor just discovered what was going on and fixed it with a twist of his sonic screwdriver.

Si.