"Comic carnage" - Batman killed off ...

[WhiteCrow]

Bruce Wayne is to be killed off as Batman.

"Death" is a bit subjective in comics as it's often just a ploy to sell more comics before you return the character "death of Superman" comes to mind, and indeed in the X-Men Prof Xavier, Jean Grey and Scott Summers have all at some point been dead for tax-reasons.

If it's a permanent move, then kudos. But I expect someone will bring him back. Personally I blame Jesus, he's made it too easy to bring someone back from the dead and make it sound believable - from Spock to Buffy Summers (twice).

Anyway, the plot sound awfully like it's been lifted from Eastenders ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertain...re/7753966.stm

Batman's alter ego Bruce Wayne has apparently been killed off in the latest issue of the superhero comic.

Scottish writer Grant Morrison revealed earlier this week that Wayne would either retire or be killed in a clash with crime syndicate Black Glove.

The story - Batman RIP - sees Batman shot by villain Simon Hurt, who claims to be Wayne's father Dr Thomas Wayne.

The caped crusader first appeared in comics in 1939, and has spawned a 1960s TV series and a host of films.

The "death" of Wayne's father - shot alongside his mother by a robber when he was a boy - was the catalyst for the young industrialist to become the vigilante crime fighter Batman.

New Batman?

In the final scene, Hurt tries to escape in a helicopter after shooting Batman.

But the wounded superhero throws himself at the helicopter, causing it to crash. The comic story ends without a frame showing Wayne's body, however.

Morrison said earlier this week: "This is the end of Bruce Wayne as Batman. But, like I say, it's so much better than death.

"People have killed characters in the past but to me, that kind of ends the story. I like to keep the story twisting and turning.

"So what I am doing is a fate worse than death. Things that no-one would expect to happen to these guys at all."

Wayne may be dead, but publisher DC Comics shows no sign of bringing to an end to the Batman franchise.

Morrison would not reveal who would be the new Batman, but the frontrunners include Tim Drake, who has been Robin since 1991, and Dick Grayson - the original Boy Wonder - who now protects Gotham City as Nightwing.

It is not the first time a superhero has met an unfortunate end in the comic world.

Last year, Captain America was killed after being shot by a sniper in New York.

[Alex]

I think it's a very poor decision. I mean, Bruce Wayne is Batman, and that's that, and it's not going to be the same with any replacement.

Still, as with all things comics-wise, I very much doubt it'll be the last we see of Wayne, all they need to do is have another Crisis On Infinite Earths type storyline and they can happily rewrite history. And if not, use time travel, like they recently did to bring Blue Beetle back to life.

[WhiteCrow]

Batman is Bruce Wayne - it's the brutal murder of his parents which forges him into Batman. Yes Dick Grayson goes through something similar. Whether Wayne comes back or not, allowing his parents to live in a shock reveal worthy only of Eastenders really makes the character shit.

[Alex]

That seems to be the way comics are going these days, with shock killings and major epic storylines every single year which threatens the very existance of the universe. Apart from they don't really, and even the dead don't stay dead for that long.

I was really surprised to read recently that the average comic only sells about 30,000 issues a month (in the main US market, anyway), which seems a tiny amount compared to even most magazines. The bigger titles might do better, but it still came as a shock as to how small the industry is these days. But until it recovers (if it ever can) to the boom period of around 1990, I imagine these sorts of storylines will continue.

Here's a pretty enormous spoiler on the Batman story btw, courtesy of Digital Spy:

Comics boss: 'Batman is not dead'

Batman and alter ego Bruce Wayne are not dead, according to DC Comics executive editor Dan DiDio.

The caped crusader apparently falls to his death in a helicopter explosion at the conclusion of Grant Morrison's Batman R.I.P., moments after adversary the Black Glove reveals that he is actually Batman's father, Dr Thomas Wayne. However, Batman boss DiDio confirmed that Bruce Wayne will wear the cowl again. "He's not dead, though he'll definitely be gone for a while," he said.

"Batman and Bruce Wayne have been here long before me and they'll be around long after me."

DC Comics previously killed off Superman in 1992 only for the Man Of Steel to reemerge a year later, while Captain America died in a Marvel Comics storyline in 2007.

[Captain Tancredi]

I was really surprised to read recently that the average comic only sells about 30,000 issues a month (in the main US market, anyway), which seems a tiny amount compared to even most magazines. The bigger titles might do better, but it still came as a shock as to how small the industry is these days. But until it recovers (if it ever can) to the boom period of around 1990, I imagine these sorts of storylines will continue.

As somebody who's just started to rekindle a passing interest in comics (it comes around every ten years or so) I wonder if part of that is precisely because of the big epic storylines and continuity resets- rather than following a story for months on end, are more people waiting for the inevitable graphic novel format reprint six months down the line?

[Alex]

It's hard to say, I mean initially these big epics sold well, and encouraged people to check out other comics that they might not have been interested in previously (which was always part of the idea behind these things), but I think there was also a decline in sales in the mid-nineties that no one can really explain and from which the industry's never really recovered from.

In my personal opinion I feel there was also a drop in quality around this time which could explain it, with a lot of the really great writers (Gaiman, Milligan, Ennis) either leaving the industry or turning in substandard work, hell, even Alan Moore went through a dodgy patch, and that didn't help...

[WhiteCrow]

Oversaturation didn't help - if you liked Batman or the X-Men or Superman, then you weren't allowed to buy just one comic. There were 3-5 titles for each, and sometimes stories were spun across titles, so you weren't allowed to buy just the one to follow the story.

It's tactics like that which really killed comics for me and no doubt many. I used to get the odd graphic novel for the whole "complete story" angle. Show me a bargain bin and I can't resist a delve.

I guess the problem for me is I grew up and the most exciting thing in comics was the New Universe, which I followed with zeal. It was a brand new world, where people suddenly started breaking out with powers, and had to cope with real world problems. Problem was no-one else was buying, so after a few years, the whole series was shut down, although Marvel occasionally plunder it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Universe

[Alex]

Oversaturation didn't help - if you liked Batman or the X-Men or Superman, then you weren't allowed to buy just one comic. There were 3-5 titles for each, and sometimes stories were spun across titles, so you weren't allowed to buy just the one to follow the story.

It's tactics like that which really killed comics for me and no doubt many. I used to get the odd graphic novel for the whole "complete story" angle. Show me a bargain bin and I can't resist a delve.

I guess the problem for me is I grew up and the most exciting thing in comics was the New Universe, which I followed with zeal. It was a brand new world, where people suddenly started breaking out with powers, and had to cope with real world problems. Problem was no-one else was buying, so after a few years, the whole series was shut down, although Marvel occasionally plunder it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Universe

I wasn't aware of that, being mainly a DC /Vertigo fan during my main comics period, but it sounds like a nice idea. Grant Morrison's initial run on Animal Man did something similar, whilst it was set in the DC Universe a lot of it was about his daily life and juggling being a superhero with his responsibilities to his wife and children. It all ends in a crazy manner, but then that appealed to me too at the time, but after Morrison left the title it really lost its edge.

There are still some good comics out there - Ex Machina is about a politician with super powers in a world where hardly anyone else has them, and it deals with his political life as much as it does with the superhero stuff, and The Walking Dead is a really fun zombie romp (plus I'm a big fan of Buffy and Angel, especially as the former is often written by Joss Whedon), but the cost of comics these days means I normally end up reading them in comic shops or when I find graphic novels cheap in charity shops.

[Rob McCow]

Perhaps they should send these Superheroes on leave, rather than killing them. They could work from home for a few weeks, though "Batman - WFH" might not be as exciting as a title.

[WhiteCrow]

Perhaps they should send these Superheroes on leave, rather than killing them. They could work from home for a few weeks, though "Batman - WFH" might not be as exciting as a title.

Yeah - that'll sell shitloads of comics "Batman on vacation".

I guess it's a logical progression. In the 80s/90s the big "event comics" were Spider-Man or Superman getting married. Now they're dropping dead instead.

It's like 4 Weddings and Lotsa Funerals.

[Jeff]

I seem to remember back in the early 90's not long after the Death of Superman didn't they do an angle where Batman was crippled or something, and Azrael took over for him?

[MacNimon]

Batman's back was broken in a story, 'No Man's Land' I think it was. I've never read it but it's one I've always meant to check out.

[Alex]

Funnily enough I've just read that they've brought back former Robin Jason Todd from the grave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Todd - it really does beggar belief, it seems that no one in the comics universe ever really stays dead, so it diminishes the effect completely.

Though I suppose I should say that doesn't apply to the rather marvellous The Walking Dead that is, in which a regular character or three seems to die every issue, and each and every time it's been a quite harrowing moment.

[Paul Monk]

I thought you knew about the Jason Todd thing?

[WhiteCrow]

Funnily enough I've just read that they've brought back former Robin Jason Todd from the grave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Todd - it really does beggar belief, it seems that no one in the comics universe ever really stays dead, so it diminishes the effect completely.

Thank you!

You've hit the nail on the head.

I remember they did an episode of Buffy in season 5 where Buffy's mum dies from cancer, and everyone said "isn't this really brave". And I thought not really. In previous seasons Buffy had died, then come back. Angel had died, then come back. Season 5 ended with Buffy dying again, before coming back.

Joyce (Buffy's mum) is unusual as one of the few people in Buffy who died, then stayed dead. I blame Jesus Christ for making people think you can just explain away someone coming back to life.

Similarly Earthshock I remember being devastated by the loss of Adric. Imagine how crap that ending would be if in Time Flight, the Doctor flew his TARDIS into the freighter, and rescued Adric last minute. Death is supposed to be dramatic, because it's very final - the way certain media use it, it's not final, so it's less dramatic.

Is it any wonder we live in a society where so many people believe Elvis is still alive!

[Alex]

No I didn't know about the Jason Todd thing Paul, it was only when I was reading a review of Aint It Cool News that I found out, and was astounded. If I'd lived in the US and had voted for his death (which I would have done for sure!), I'd be even more pissed off! Apparently he might be a candidate for replacing Bats too, which is bizarre considering he's (mostly) been a villain ever since his return.

Thank you!

You've hit the nail on the head.

I remember they did an episode of Buffy in season 5 where Buffy's mum dies from cancer, and everyone said "isn't this really brave". And I thought not really. In previous seasons Buffy had died, then come back. Angel had died, then come back. Season 5 ended with Buffy dying again, before coming back.

Joyce (Buffy's mum) is unusual as one of the few people in Buffy who died, then stayed dead. I blame Jesus Christ for making people think you can just explain away someone coming back to life.

Similarly Earthshock I remember being devastated by the loss of Adric. Imagine how crap that ending would be if in Time Flight, the Doctor flew his TARDIS into the freighter, and rescued Adric last minute. Death is supposed to be dramatic, because it's very final - the way certain media use it, it's not final, so it's less dramatic.

Is it any wonder we live in a society where so many people believe Elvis is still alive!

Quite, I think later series of Buffy did this quite well at times - Tara's death was equally galling, but then I think they learnt from their earlier mistakes of bringing characters back from the dead as the series moved on. And Buffy's second coming (ahem!) was only due to the series being picked up by UPN, if they hadn't she would have remained deceased.

And I was equally devestated by the ending to Earthshock, and Blake's 7 too - sod all this "Well they might've survived stuff", if they did it would ruin what I feel is one of the best endings to a series ever.

[Rob McCow]

It's even more bizarre when they resurrect superheroes. With Superman, there can't be very many people who can fly, burn lasers from their eyes etc. But with Batman, surely the point is that it could be anyone behind the mask? So they could easily bring Batman back, but have someone else take over the role without the need for back-from-the-dead mucking about.

[Paul Monk]

No I didn't know about the Jason Todd thing Paul, it was only when I was reading a review of Aint It Cool News that I found out, and was astounded.

I remember talking to someone about it and I just assumed it was you.
Still these sorts of events very nearly work because even though I was pissed off about it, I was still thinking about buying the issues just so I could see how they justified it.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

That seems to be the way comics are going these days, with shock killings and major epic storylines every single year which threatens the very existance of the universe. Apart from they don't really, and even the dead don't stay dead for that long.

One might almost think you were talking about Doctor Who there.