Delta and The Bannermen - Back from The 50's NOW!

[Rob McCow]

Ah, ah, ah, ah, but in The Gunfighters, there are bits of singing where the characters can hear it. But there are also bits where the characters can't, so that's probably the one.

What about choral voices on the soundtrack? There's a bit of that in some of the Troughton stories, The Ice Warriors I think.

We spotted Sylvester McCoy checking out Ray's two companions in part one.

[shada pavlova]

What about choral voices on the soundtrack? There's a bit of that in some of the Troughton stories, The Ice Warriors I think.

Space Pirates too.

[Si Hunt]

We've finished watching it again. It's a story that you need to enjoy on a higher, more sophisticated level; unusually, it's really all about love - at its core, there's Ray whose heart belongs to Billy, but Billy is in love with Delta and has to be because that essentially saves her race. So we're left with Ray sighing desperately while Billy and Delta head off into the sunset to repopulate her planet. What carries this along is the wistful music, the sunshine and the feeling of nostalgia. Even this overcomes the fact that the people playing the two romantic leads are hopelessly wooden and have no chemistry between them.

The story itself is full of things that don't make sense, which is why you shouldn't think about it too much: if Delta is on the run, why does she immediately announce who she is to a busful of people (which then allows someone to snitch on her)? Where does Billy's white spacesuit come from at the end? (Is it supposed to be "skin"?) And how is one male going to repopulate the race (unless they either crossbreed with other species later or the whole new population are related and incestuous)? Why does Gavrok bother to tie up the two CIA agents? And then they escape, and he orders them to be recaptured... why? Why do they mean anything to him? What is the plan exactly when the Bannermen are bombarded by the Princess' amplified screams? To deafen them? (which is a bit grissly)? Or do they somehow know Gavrok is going to wander into his own trap? No-one is standing by to tie them up when they are under attack. And Murrays reason for not accepting a lift aboard the TARDIS to escape ("A captain never desserts his ship") is a bit blind, given that he and his entire party are later wiped out when they stay aboard it.

But if these things ruin the story for you, it's a bit sad as none of it is really the point. It's a story more than an adventure; a story about how a community clubs together to outwit a horrendous bully and save a race. How bees, and rock and roll, and cleverness outfox brute force. And it makes you cross that so many people slag off Keff when the music is so thoughtful and appropriate, far more so than a lot of Dudley Simpson scores that no-one ever criticises.

"Love has never been known for its rationality" sighes the Doctor. It's a great little story, which on only a couple of occasions (the death of the Tollmaster and the busful of Navarinos) veers away from the optimistic, love conquers all tone that makes it such a treat to enjoy.

Yes, enjoy - THAT's why it's a good story. Because whatever you can criticise the individual ingrediants for, it's enjoyable. In contrast with a lot of technically better stories that are still, somehow less pleasurable to watch.

Si.

[shada pavlova]

Well said that chap.

[SiHart]

I'm very fond of this story and these days it's definitely my favourite of the season. There's a lot to love in it.

It was a good disc- it must have been we did the whole lot in one go last night! I was really impressed with the way Bonnie came across in the uncut version of the But First This interviews- so enthusiastic and happy about being in the show and about Mel as well. I think she still gets a needlessly hard time from fandom, and she is by no means the worst companion ever- and she's really good in the story, despite being bizarrely sidelined for much of the final episode in order to showcase Ray. Shame as she could have done all the Ray bits in episode 3 just as well (if not better!).

Like Steve I really enjoyed Stripped for Action, though no-one metioned the variable McCoy likenessess that plagued the strip throughout the 7th Doctor's run. Nice to hear some of the politics and behind the scenes stuff about it though. Some odd decisions were made- especially all the crossovers they did at the start of his run.

Si xx

[Logo Polish]

It's one of those stories that anticipates the new series more than usual, in the sense of having an emotional dimension under it, of Ray's unrequited love and Delta and Billy's relationship somehow leading to the rebirth of a species. The whole business with Billy and Ray in the first episode especially, when it's eventually made clear that she's heartbroken at his not returning her affection... it's the sort of thing that's more characteristic of 21st Century Who than the original series. As well as being recorded in Wales, obviously.

[SiHart]

Forgot to metion- we still can't believe that Andrew Pixley made the mistake of placing Rickmansworth in Buckinghamshire instead of the correct Hertfordhsire in the production subtitles. What a mistake to make! And from Mr Pixley too!

Si xx

[Si Hunt]

Not to mention the special feature that apparently (according to the box) features Andi Peters. The person we saw was Andy Crane...

Si.

[SiHart]

In those tight shorts too!

Si xx

[Si Hunt]

Bloody hell yes! What was he thinking?

Si.

[Rob McCow]

Perhaps Andy Crane was trying to work out where Andi Peters had hidden his trousers?

Anyway I don't know what you're complaining about Mr Hunt - you were telling us all off for not wearing shorts last weekend!

[Andrew Curnow]

Great post from Si, in fact from both Sis, and although he's quite right that letting all those questions ruin the story for you is really missing the point, I think some of them at least have reasonable explanations:

Re:the plan with the Princess. I've always assumed that the Bannermen are especially susceptible to the noise the Chimerons make - and have taken that to be the reason that Gavrok has embarked on his scheme to commit genocide in the first place.

Repopulating (do you see what I did there). There's a definite 'bee' theme to the story, so on that basis Delta and/or the Princess are the Queen Bees of a new breed of Chimerons. After just one mating they might well produce thousands of offspring, both male and female. OK, probably best not to dwell on that image too long, but you get the point...

But anyway, I love this story & always have, for many reasons not least of which are the two regulars who are so clearly enjoying it. McCoy is just brilliant in this one, he's funny & clever & sad in all the right places and makes the 'new' Doctor such a wise, kind, but vulnerable little man that we just love him.

[Simon R]

I think a word has to be said about Bonnie Langford's outfit in the But First This interview. And that's not a costume she wore as Melanie but something she presumably wore as casual dress to travel to the location!

[Andrew Curnow]

Hat?

[Si Hunt]

I think you have a definate point re: the reproduction of bees, Andrew - the way Goronwry blatantly explains how worker Bees are fed special 'elixir' to make them into Queen bees while the Princess is fed the similar green (oddly vacuum packed) substance to complete her development is a clear parallel from which we can deduce that Chimerons work in the same way. Also note the way that we only ever see one female Chimeron (who is beautiful) and she is surrounded by lots of hideous looking males.

However, there's nothing in the actual script to say that the Bannermen are especially suspectible to the Princess screams, and if they are, it seems a bit mercenary (even towards the Bannermen) for the Doctors plan to be to make them die (or even be defeaned) in such a painful way. So what is the plan?

The biggest problem, though, seems to be the attempts to give the CIA agents significance, and there's no reason why Gavrok shouldn't kill them, let alone why he later wants to find them. I'm glad they're in the story, because they add a bit of lively character and a few nice humerous touches (I like the scene where Ray frees them and Stubby Kaye is obviously very grateful), but it has to be said that they have no real reason to be there at all!

Si.

[Simon R]

it seems a bit mercenary (even towards the Bannermen) for the Doctors plan to be to make them die (or even be defeaned) in such a painful way. So what is the plan

Surely the plan is to over power the Bannermen so that the goodies can come and tie them up with skipping ropes as it what happens. It's just a bit of luck that Gavrok walks into the sonic cone field around the TARDIS.

[Si Hunt]

Well that's what I suggested in my original post, only no-one seems braced to rush forward and tie them up...

Knockers of Sylvester McCoy might like to observe the scene in the cafe, where he improvises the little touches with the Doctor and the apple (he first shakes it and listens to it, then later there is running joke as every time he tries to eat it Mel interupts him). When we watched it yesterday it made me realise that they were actually taking such care over Doctor Who by this point. It's hard to imagine them adding such a clever touch to a story from a few years before, "Time Flight", for example.

Si.

[Stuart Wallis]

I have a bizarre image in my head of Sylvester McCoy's knockers... I wish it would go away!

[Perry Vale]

So, 2E have messed up the end credits on this release too?

[shada pavlova]

I think you have a definate point re: the reproduction of bees, Andrew - the way Goronwry blatantly explains how worker Bees are fed special 'elixir' to make them into Queen bees while the Princess is fed the similar green (oddly vacuum packed) substance to complete her development is a clear parallel from which we can deduce that Chimerons work in the same way. Also note the way that we only ever see one female Chimeron (who is beautiful) and she is surrounded by lots of hideous looking males.

You've just reminded me of a question I used to ponder over. I think there was some sort of implication that Goronwry was actually a Time Lord, which is why the Doctor was so chummy with him. At least, after reading the novelisation, that's the feeling I got.

If that's the case, I reckon he got pretty annoyed when the Daleks sent him out of business in 2009.

[Logo Polish]

Well that's what I suggested in my original post, only no-one seems braced to rush forward and tie them up...

Knockers of Sylvester McCoy might like to observe the scene in the cafe, where he improvises the little touches with the Doctor and the apple (he first shakes it and listens to it, then later there is running joke as every time he tries to eat it Mel interupts him). When we watched it yesterday it made me realise that they were actually taking such care over Doctor Who by this point. It's hard to imagine them adding such a clever touch to a story from a few years before, "Time Flight", for example.

Si.

Although in fairness, around the time Time Flight was being made, JNT tended to discourage adding comic business to stories, something Peter Davison has commented on a few times. The Tom Baker backlash, so-called.

You've just reminded me of a question I used to ponder over. I think there was some sort of implication that Goronwry was actually a Time Lord, which is why the Doctor was so chummy with him. At least, after reading the novelisation, that's the feeling I got.

If that's the case, I reckon he got pretty annoyed when the Daleks sent him out of business in 2009.

I wonder if he's got a TARDIS somewhere?

[Si Hunt]

We were stunned at the level of thought Hugh Lloyd had clearly invested in his character, as shown in the sweet little interview feature on him on the disk. I don't know if it was hindsight, but Goronwry being a Time Lord doesn't seem to have just been a 'fan speculation' thing, as he says he figured that because Goronwry understood bees and nature, that gave him a deeper insight into what was going on, and thus why nothing surprises him... he also suggests that he might be a Time Lord. Unusual for a supporting character to have so expertly nailed his character, and it explains why it's such a great, intriguing performance.

So, 2E have messed up the end credits on this release too?

In what way?

Si.

[shada pavlova]

So does that mean the Doctor's not the last Time Lord, and there's actually a 900-year-old welshman pottering around tending to bees somewhere in Wales?

Perhaps Goronwry was "called up" in the Time War. Ditto Professor Chronotis, and both were killed.

His TARDIS could have been a beehive.

[Milky Tears]

So, 2E have messed up the end credits on this release too?

FFFGGHHFFGFSS!! That's 25 bloody releases in a row they've destroyed with their meddling!!! Stephen James Walker will have EXPLODED!!

[Perry Vale]

In what way?

Si.

Well apparently......

I assume the credits have been re-made as there appears to be an error in the end captions for part two. Murray Vinny and Keillor seem to be credited with two different cast members names. The top credit changes and the cast names change but the character name stays the same on the following credit. Not sure about the other episodes though....