The age old battle

[SiHart]

Which is better Season 17 or Season 18?

I can't decide. They're both great!

You decide!

VOTE! VOTE! VOTE!

Si xx

[Jonno]

Ooh, me first for once!

Factors that favour S17 - classic theme music and title sequence, better costume for the Doctor. Better use of K9!

Factors that favour S18 - the season-long theme of entropy, the mini-arc that I'm currently watching, some beautiful incidental music (notably Hive and Circle), the clean sweep of companions and Doctor in the space of six months.

And perhaps most tellingly for me personally, I never saw S17 on original transmission, though I did catch the Destiny/City repeats the following summer, whereas S18 saw me back in the country and watching full time again, so has the obvious nostalgic appeal that S17 doesn't.

Plus the best of S18 outranks the best of S17 for me and the worst of S17 is worse than the worst of S18 too.

So it's definitely S18 for me!

[Pip Madeley]

Season 17 is fun.

Season 18 is not. As fun.

That is all.

[Dirk Gently]

Season 17 for me.

[Wayne]

Hmm let's see....

Destiny of the Daleks - 8/10
City of Death - 4/10
The Creature from the Pit - 5/10
Nightmare of Eden - 3/10
The Horns of Nimon - 6/10
Shada - 5/10

(31/60)

The Leisure Hive - 6/10
Meglos - 3/10
Full Circle - 6/10
State of Decay - 8/10
Warriors' Gate - 3/10
The Keeper of Traken - 7/10
Logopolis - 2/10

(36/60)

[Anthony Williams]

18! wooo!

Ant x

[shada pavlova]

Season 17! Purely because of City of Death!

[Antony Cox]

Hmm let's see....

Destiny of the Daleks - 8/10
City of Death - 4/10
The Creature from the Pit - 5/10
Nightmare of Eden - 3/10
The Horns of Nimon - 6/10
Shada - 5/10

(31/60)

The Leisure Hive - 6/10
Meglos - 3/10
Full Circle - 6/10
State of Decay - 8/10
Warriors' Gate - 3/10
The Keeper of Traken - 7/10
Logopolis - 3/10

(33/60)

Not much in it, but it's Season 18 then.

Mmm.. something just doesn't add up, there...

Deffo Season 18, Tte most nostalgic season of all for me. I'll admit that I'm basing this on memory rather than fact, as I don't have Pit or Eden, or the E-space trilogy or Meglos.

[Andrew Curnow]

I thought the age old battle was chaos versus structure (or at least that's what the Doctor says in Logopolis from season 18).

I'm torn - it's painful! I love season 17 absolutely, and as I've said before when season 18 started I hated it for being so different, from the title sequence onwards. But, but, but, by the time Full Circle came on I was hooked again, and the final Tom story is always in my top ten all-time list (and usually at number 2). It's also probably the story I quote most!!

I'm not going to vote yet, because I actually do need to think about it. And I'm very surprised about that!

[Larry]

season 17 is for me very much like season 15 a couple of good stories (city of death ?& nightmare on eden)but the rest is awful at best and at worst Doctor Who at it's most embarrassing and cheap tacky production.

Season 18 on the other hand was a vast improvement on the previous 3 seasons the over all production and stories were of a much higher quality. Also Tom, after sleep walking through the previous 3 seasons with some erratic and almost disinterested and board performances is back to his best . The other good thing about sason 18 is watching it all now you see see in Tom's performance a weary and sombre Doctor and a complete contrast to the hypoeractive manic Doctor of season 12 and 13.

[SiHart]

I thought the age old battle was chaos versus structure

Doesn't that sum this battle up nicely? At least from Chris Bidmead's point of view?

I just don't know how to answer.

I love them both as you all know. There's something wonderful about the atmosphere of season 17 that makes it a joy to watch, but then again there's that season 18 atmosphere that's intriguing and nostalgic for me.

Si xx

[Wayne]

Mmm.. something just doesn't add up, there...

oops Yes, 6 stories v 7 stories. I can't do percentages. I was a bit generous with 'Logopolis' though.

[Jonno]

Sorry to be pedantic, Wayne, but with that extra story your S18 total is 36/70, which equates to 51.4%. S17 at 31/60 equates to 51.66%, so on that basis you should really vote for S17!

Then there's the Shada factor. Personally, I don't think it counts as part of S17, so if you take that away you get 26/50 which is exactly 52% so again it's still S17 for you!

Oh - and how naughty is Si to come up with the poll, then refuse to vote in it!

Finally - do we think this idea has merit to carry on with two successive seasons at a time from the beginning - S1 vs S2, 3 vs 4 etc? Could be fun?

Edited to add - while I was doing all that, I now see Wayne has realised the same about the percentages, but there you go buddy, the calculations are done for you. Hope you're well by the way, we haven't communicated for ages!

[Si Hunt]

Both seasons are excellent examples of Doctor Who constrained by a huge negative enjoyment factor.

In Season 17 it is a combination of Tom Baker's egomania and budget. Here we are blessed with a variety of settings (modern day Paris, a spaceship in the future, an alien planet, Rennaisance France) but the monsters are tatty and the sets are often flat and lifeless. Sometimes Tom Baker's clowing goes beyond papering over the joins in the sets and becomes self-indulgent. There are parts of this season where Doctor Who has never felt so far from its origins.

In Season 18 it's Bidmead. The design, direction and production values have all been ramped up; In Season 17 they wouldn't have even thought of doing something as imaginitive as having the action dissapear down a vortex of stars (as it does in "The Leisure Hive") or superimposing the slow-motion bat onto Aukon's face. But everything is cloaked in dull science-speak; there's a blanket-ban on anything humorous as a kick-back against the previous year, so the Season is plodded through by a sombre Doctor who often seems to hate his companions and every planet has a dull old man spouting on about some theoretical type of scientific theory.

Overall I think Season 17 wins out, simply because Tom's excesses are occasionally magnificent, and often cancel out the budgetry problem (a good joke making up for a cheap set) and it dates from an era which was comfortingly "old school" BBC; you got the impression Morcame and Wise or John Cleese could wander in from the studio next door at any time (and once that actually happened). Being funny sometimes is better than never being funny at all, and the stories were always imaginitive and ambitious. Occasionally in Season 18 the technobabble actually swamps the story ("Logopolis" and "Warriors Gate" spring to mind). It's better to tell a decent story and look crap than not have one and look and sound gorgeous.

So Season 17 for me, despite all its faults. Season 18 is often very good, but it may have been too much change, too soon.

Si.

[Captain Tancredi]

I voted for 17, mainly because of the two it's the one I would choose to sit down and watch from end to end on a rainy afternoon. Although 18 has very many good moments, its self-importance and po-facedness ruin it for me, and it has to be said that two of its most watchable stories- 'Leisure Hive' and 'State of Decay'- have their roots firmly in the Williams era. And then there's Christopher Hamilton Bidmead's bizarre inability to understand what makes engaging drama from the viewer's perspective...

[Lord President]

Season 17! Purely because of City of Death!

I adore City of Death, but it is the diamond in the rough of S17, so S18 for me!

[Jonno]

it's the one I would choose to sit down and watch from end to end on a rainy afternoon.

At approx. 500 minutes, that's one heck of a long afternoon!

[Wayne]

Thanks for doing the maths Jonno!
Looks like S17 whichever way. Well, it has got a dalek story after all.

At approx. 500 minutes, that's one heck of a long afternoon!

Sounds like 'Logopolis' or 'Warriors Gate' to me.

[Andrew Curnow]

I've been wrestling with this one (and with toothache!) for most of yesterday, on and off, and I'm surprised to find that I still don't know...

If I can think outloud for a minute though, one of the things that really hooked me with Doctor Who as a kid were the ideas, the concepts and 'thoughts' that you could take beyond the 25 minutes on a Saturday. Both these seasons have this appeal - season 17 has Destiny's 'logical stalemate' set-up, with the superb illustration scene of rock, paper, scissors; it has City of Death with its driving force being "How do bad guys afford it?"; Creature from the Pit with its chlorophyll, and its alien communicator; and Nightmare of Eden with its CET machine, and its druggy Mandrells.

Season 18 has Full Circle with its evolution, and its society living a lie; it has The Leisure Hive and its multi-purpose tachyon generator; it has a universe kept alive through mathematics, and the apparently-unstoppable threat of an unfeeling, unthinking, force of nature in the entropy cloud.

(BTW, I'm not commenting on how accurate or 'real' either series' use of science is, just the concepts and thoughts that are slung into the show at this time.)

I love all that as a kid, and although they both approach it in different ways, both seasons have it in spades.

Darn, that's no help at all, they're still neck & neck!!

[Andrew Curnow]

What about Tom? He gives almost a totally different performance in these two seasons, but is brilliant in both. I'm afraid I've no patience for claims of Tom putting in 'lazy performances' as I've yet to see one! What's really worth noting is that even if, as we're led to believe, he so hated the season 18 approach, he put all that aside and still gives a perfectly-judged performance, suited to the tone and feel of the show. From the sprightly, unstoppable man of action from 1979, he suddenly adopts a more sombre, even doomladen old man for 1980, and he does it brilliantly.

I think it's going to come down to this:

Season 17 has four stories I think are brilliant, plus Nimon which is not so good but still OK, and might have had Shada which actually probably wouldn't have been all that good (and Lalla seems very bad in it). So that's either 4 out of 5 or 4 out of 6.

Season 18 has two stories I think are brilliant (Full Circle & Logopolis). Of the others, I think Warriors Gate in particular is a very dull watch. I'm not saying there's not a good idea under there, but I don't think there's enough story to sustain its length, and it's a very ploddy, laboured production (IMHO) with no lightness of touch. The Leisure Hive is another one that looks much better than it is, but pulls off the trick better than Warriors Gate so that it's very watchable. And Meglos, Traken and State of Decay are all perfectly acceptable (although State of Decay runs out of steam after two episodes, IMHO).

So, rightly or wrongly, based solely on the numbers, and although I probably like my favourites from season 18 more than my favourites from season 17, I'm going to go for season 17 as having a higher hit rate.

Oh, and BTW, both seasons have some of the best cliffhangers ever!!!

[Andrew Curnow]

I also feel obliged to add (and then I'll bog off, honest) that season 18 is arguably* the only season in the original run that builds towards a climax, in a similar way to the modern show. Linking the E-Space stories, then the return of the Master feeding into the season finale, which in turn links back to E-Space with its reference and use of the CVEs... Even as a kid, I really loved that, and I suspect it's due to CHB rather than JN-T.



*I say arguably because season 16 (the Key to Time) should have built to a climax, but doesn't; and season 23 (TOATL) is actually only one story, so is a different kettle of fish. Probably.

[shada pavlova]

Are you quite finished now? Good.

I would also like to add that the McGann version of Shada was pretty amazing, and that in itself makes Season 17 even better, IMHO.

[Jonno]

Are you quite finished now? Good.

How rude. I'd much rather read a detailed explanation from someone than someone that states the answer and gives no reasoning.

[Tom Simpson]

Destiny of the Daleks - 2/5.
City of Death - 4/5.
The Creature from the Pit - 2/5.
Nightmare of Eden - 3/5.
The Horns of Nimon - 2/5.

13 / 25

The Leisure Hive - 1/5.
Meglos - 1/5.
Full Circle - 2/5.
State of Decay - 3/5.
Warriors' Gate - 2/5.
The Keeper of Traken - 1/5.
Logopolis - 4/5.

14 / 35

It seems Season 17 wins.



Might try doing this for every season, actually...

[Phillip Culley]

Season 17.

Doctor Who is exciting adventures in time and space, not a bloody science lesson.

Plus Season 17 does have City of Death and Horns of Nimon, while Season 18 has Adric