Why didn't the War Chief regenerate?

[Jamie McCrimmon]

He was a Time Lord, wasn't he? I don't get why he didn't regenerate. It was a missed opportunity to have him regenerate and become known as the Master in the Pertwee era, really.

[Si Hunt]

Practically, it was because regeneration wasn't thought of then, as we think of it now. The term hadn't even been invented, and we had simply seen the Doctor "rejuvinate" from being old to being young. Then of course, in this story the Time Lords somehow "impose" another change of appearance on him. There's nothing to even say this is the same process as that seen in "The Tenth Planet" - the Time Lords can seemingly will someone out the timeline and make force fields appear in mid-air - who's to say this isn't just the affect of another magic power? Although reference is made to the Doctor having "changed his appearance before" there's nothing to say this is neccessarily the same process. So at that time, "regeneration" wasn't something that every Time Lord seemed to be able to do when dying (and, indeed, it specifically states in the same story that Time Lords don't die unless there is an accident).

With hindsight, of course, it now seems unusual that the War Chief wouldn't regenerate, although I would say, perhaps he did (into the Master) and it happened off-screen a short while later. We don't get a good look at him after he's shot and several of the Doctor's regenerations have kicked in a good few minutes after the old body has died.

Si.

[Jamie McCrimmon]

Thanks, this has been bugging me since I watched the dvd.

Its nice to think of him becoming the Master, though...

[Paul Monk]

He didn't die but recouperated on Earth until he was well enough to get involved with an organisation specialising in renting out ghosts to scare people.

[SiHart]

Why do people liketo think the War Chief is the Master. There are a few similarities between the characters I grant you, but honestly, why can't he just be another Time Lord that the Doctor sort of knows. It becomes a bit limiting if we start doing this kind of thing as eventually we'll discover the Doctor has only ever met about 6 people on Gallifrey ever. I think he's an excellent villain in his own right without him being bogged down in the Master continuity.

Si xx

[Captain Tancredi]

I think the whole Master connection is more a case of the War Chief as written and Edward Brayshaw's portrayal influencing the sort of character that Terrance Dicks and Barry Letts subsequently saw the Doctor's nemesis as being. Various novels make it quite clear that they're two separate characters, Magnus and Koschei.

The first Time Lord other than the Doctor who's seen to regenerate is K'Anpo/Cho-Je a full five years later.

[shada pavlova]

I think it's high time I invoked the New Adventures!

Specifically, Timewyrm: Exodus.

In that book, it is revealed that in all the confusion as the Time Lords arrived, the War Chief's regeneration went wrong and he was horribly disfigured. The War Lords then took him back to their planet and kept him to study (presumably in the hope that they would find out how to escape from the Time Lords' forcefield), but the War Chief managed to talk his way out of it, destroyed the forcefield, travelled back in time to Nazi Germany, and tried to turn the whole of the German army into cannon fodder for the War Lords.

Also, he wanted to steal the Doctor's body (because his own was rapidly decaying. Sound familiar?)

I think that answers your question.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Invoking the New Adventures never answers anyone's question. Unless the question is "what series of books has no real relevance in discussions of TV series continuity?"

[Pip Madeley]

I think it was a shame we never saw the War Chief again, Brayshaw was a revelation.

[Si Hunt]

It becomes a bit limiting if we start doing this kind of thing as eventually we'll discover the Doctor has only ever met about 6 people on Gallifrey ever. I think he's an excellent villain in his own right without him being bogged down in the Master continuity.

True, but what strikes me about watching The War Chief in "The War Games" is that he's given huge significance to the Doctor (he doesn't just recognise him, he seems to know him inside out and is horrified by his presence) but the character is never mentioned again. That to me is darn right odd, unless he appears later trading under another name. And then one realises that he's so similar to the Master as to make it weird if they wern't the same man - he knows the Doctor of old, the Doctor has the same attitude towards him, that of someone ashamed of a former friend, he's greedy for power, he's allying himself with an outside race who he then intends to betray in order to get it, he offers the Doctor a share in the power...

So factually, yes the character was a complete template for The Master but fictionally that means we should consider the fact they are the same. And not wanting to "use up" an otherwise great character by him turning out to be another is no good reason fictionally why this shouldn't be the case...

Si.

[SiHart]

True, but what strikes me about watching The War Chief in "The War Games" is that he's given huge significance to the Doctor (he doesn't just recognise him, he seems to know him inside out and is horrified by his presence)

I think at this stage in his adventures the Doctor would be horrified to see any Time Lord. When we consider his reaction when he has to call them in at the end of the story, and the dread he has when they start to control his actions in part 9, he is perfectly justified in reacting this way to the War Chief. If there is someone else from his race there, then he could be in big trouble.

Of course you'll now invoke the Meddling Monk to make my argument look silly. Still, I don't think he is the Master because...

but the character is never mentioned again.

...he is dead. Why would you mention a dead character again. And lets face it, he is significantly dead looking- after all why would Heather be asking why he didn't regenerate if he wasn't?

Si xx

[shada pavlova]

the character is never mentioned again.

Yes he is.



He gets an appearance in a flashback to before the Doctor left Gallifrey. The Rani's in it too. And Mortimus the Meddling Monk.

The War Chief's also in my Time War fanfic. (which i WILL FINISH! Someday!)

[SiHart]

Ahh, but that was set before the War Games, so doesn't count! (and it's a book!)

Si xx

[shada pavlova]

What's wrong with books?

[SiHart]

Nothing- I read and enjoyed them both (well maybe less so in the case of Divided Loyalties) it's just that using the books to retrospetively solve continuity conundrums is often problematical- it's never quite what was intended in the first place. There's nothing to suggest that the Doctor was at the academy with the Meddling Monk and the War Chief as well as the Master and the Rani for instance.

(But that is a whole other debate that should be talked about elsewhere, if it really needs to be discussed at all! )

Si xx

[shada pavlova]

I just don't understand you lot.

Clearly, if a hole in continuity (such as the whole War Chief regeneration thing) opens up, if an explanation is offered in any medium that satisfactorily plugs the gap and preserves the flow of continuity, what is the stigma around just accepting it?!

[Logo Polish]

There's a clue in your use of the word "satisfactorily". It's not always necessarily an idea that satisfies everybody, because they'll have different ideals and preferences, and don't feel that something in a media outside the TV series should be able to cut off speculation. So, for example, if someone likes the idea that the War Chief might have been an earlier incarnation of the Master, they're not going to automatically abandon that just because someone wrote a book putting forward an alternative theory.

[Si Hunt]

And there's also the fact that including a book breaks down the "TV only" barrier for continuity. So if stuff in "Divided Loyalties" counts, why not the adventure I wrote when I was 12 featuring Liz Shaw and the Androgums? (I'm ashamed to say it actually does exist, that's not just a made-up example)

Si.

[shada pavlova]

Was it ever officially published under license from the BBC?

Cos if it was, it might hold some claim to canonicity.

But hey, I'd still like to read it anyway!

[Si Hunt]

Ok, we'll say official BBC then.

So the annuals all count then! And the comic strip. And the Weetabix cards.

But I've just realised I'm suddenly in a debate that I'd rather jab my testicles repeatedly with a toasting fork than participate in.

Si.

[shada pavlova]

Ok, we'll say official BBC then.

So the annuals all count then! And the comic strip. And the Weetabix cards.

I've got no problem with that.

But I've just realised I'm suddenly in a debate that I'd rather jab my testicles repeatedly with a toasting fork than participate in.

Si.

Okay, NOW I have a problem with that.

[SiHart]

There are some debates that don't need to be reopened- or if they do, please can we do them in a different thread and get back on topic? Ta!

Si xx

[shada pavlova]

I thought we'd already established why the War Chief didn't regenerate (or rather what went wrong when he did).

[Andrew Curnow]

To be very boring (and ignoring the whole book thing - I don't mind accepting the good ones as canon, but the trouble is that opens the door to being forced to accept tripe like Divided Loyalties, which would be just madness) surely the answer to 'why doesn't the War Chief regenerate' is that he isn't mortally wounded, or hurt, or poisoned, or anything like that - he's just DEAD. The Doctor says (in episode ten) that they can live forever "barring accidents" - being dealt a killing blast at point blank range probably qualifies as an accident. So simply, he didn't get chance, he had already died.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

I thought the idea proper of regeneration existing for other Timelords wasn't really done or discussed until the Pertwee era.