What story will top the DWM 200 Poll?

[Si Hunt]

Then we had the audio, the telesnaps and the censor clips and it's reputation rose with all of them.

Right! So these things did bring us closer to the story. It wasn't that a reputation was "stuck" with the book (which surely no-one under 30 can have read anyway) and then immovable.

Si.

[Andrew Curnow]

I'm not sure which side of the debate I'm on, but I would say we didn't have many photos of Tomb before it was discovered in 1992 - a few stock ones of the Cybermen, Kaftan with a 'mat on her shoulder, that was about it wasn't it? One of the 'big' selling points of David Banks' Cyberman book was some detailed illustrations of what the sets probably looked like, I believe.

As for Fury... Maybe it's just me but I've never been that keen on this one. The book's very readable, but many Targets are, and the Oak & Quill censor clip is very good - but the (admittedly cobbled together from bits & pieces) finale scene on the Lost in Time set isn't very exciting, and at six episodes I suspect we'd consider it a bit ploddy if we could see it (sorry Pip).

But then, I really like The Massacre, but haven't heard more than about three 'lost' audios, so I'm just confused...

Going back to Tim's comment about Talons, though, I don't think there's ever much Talons-bashing on PS is there? Far from it. Pyramids maybe, even Genesis occasionally, but not Talons!!

[Rob McCow]

Right! So these things did bring us closer to the story.

They did, but they didn't bring us actually to the story. It could still be disappointing if it ever turned up again and it's reputation could fall. But it might be as good as you say. I don't know, I've never seen it. Even with the telesnaps, recons and audios, it might still not be as good as you think it is.

The novels (which, lest we forget, allowed more room to tell "Black Orchid" than "The War Games") are new creations based on scripts of the TV episodes.

Yes, but you were saying that no-one had a good idea what Tomb was like before it turned up. But they would have known the story and known what most of the things looked like in it.

The photos are all taken in beautifully lit poses, many staged, many of scenes not even in the TV episodes.

You make it sound like a Vogue photoshoot! That may be true, but you can still see the design work. It's not going to accurately tell you how the story was directed. The telesnaps give a bit more of a clue but they don't tell the whole story either! So if it turns up, it might not be as good as you thought it was, or it might be just as good, or it might be better.

[SiHart]

Going back to Tim's comment about Talons, though, I don't think there's ever much Talons-bashing on PS is there? Far from it. Pyramids maybe, even Genesis occasionally, but not Talons!!

Even I love Talons!

Si xx

[Si Hunt]

They did, but they didn't bring us actually to the story. It could still be disappointing if it ever turned up again and it's reputation could fall. But it might be as good as you say. I don't know, I've never seen it. Even with the telesnaps, recons and audios, it might still not be as good as you think it is.

Yes, but you were saying that no-one had a good idea what Tomb was like before it turned up. But they would have known the story and known what most of the things looked like in it.

No, all I was saying was that things have moved on from the days of "Tomb" - you said this was a good example to go on, where-as my point was that things would be different now because we have LOADS more representation of each story. I'm not saying opinions wouldn't change, but that to use "Tomb" as the benchmark is misleading because we have more of an idea now about what the missing stories are like than they had with "Tomb" in 1991. Surely you can't refute this? Yet you do, maintaining that the stacks of soundtracks, photos and telesnaps that have since turned up tell us no more about each story than a 100 page Target book! Respectfully, I honestly couldn't disagree more with this.

You make it sound like a Vogue photoshoot!

Yes! Go and look through the Radio Times 20th Anniversary Special, the sort of thing they had to go on in the old days. The stories look GORGEOUS! "The Sea Devils" looks fantastic. And as for the black and white stories... the moody shots of Sensorites in tunnels and Susan being sinisterly menaced by a Voord are a UNIVERSE away from the grainy black and white images we got on screen of blokes in wet suits. It is, totally and utterly, like comparing a Vogue Photoshoot to a school play.

Si.

[Rob McCow]

Yet you do, maintaining that the stacks of soundtracks, photos and telesnaps that have since turned up tell us no more about each story than a 100 page Target book!

Do pay attention 007! They do tell us more than the Target book, but they still don't tell us everything! The, telesnaps and audios only get you a bit closer to the story.

The Target book gives you the storyline.

The audios let you hear the actors and gives you the storyline.

The telesnaps make you sit there squinting and go 'What is that?' OK- they give you a bit of a visual impression.

But so much of what makes Doctor Who great are the little moments, the competence of the direction, or a gesture from Hartnell. They wouldn't show up in the telesnaps.

None of them are perfect.

The Targets, telesnaps and audios wouldn't show the Zarbi bumping in to the camera. They wouldn't show you the great battle between the Mechanoids and The Daleks properly. The existing photographs give an idea of what the effects of The Time Destructor were like, but they're somewhat lacking. All the nuances of the physical performances aren't there!

We are closer to understanding what the stories are like now, but I don't think we're that much closer.

[Matthew T]

Has Tomb really fallen from favour since it was discovered? It's still very highly rated in fan polls, and I certainly think it's excellent?

Also, some of the CDs of missing stories are very hard to find now. Don't expect to pick up The Savages for less than £50 for example!

[Captain Tancredi]

It's interesting to note that before the novelisation came out Fury from the Deep was barely mentioned at all.

I think that's at least partly a case of Season 5 being thought of as particularly monster-heavy and 'Fury' having to take its place behind two Cybermen stories, the two Yeti adventures and the debut of the Ice Warriors- and there not really being any pictures of the Weed Creature doing the rounds. It's a bit like an exercise in giving half a dozen writers and directors the same brief but a different setting and seeing what happens.

[Perry Vale]

Has Tomb really fallen from favour since it was discovered? It's still very highly rated in fan polls, and I certainly think it's excellent?

I have to agree with you, and was going to say the same thing. Tomb finished 25th in this new DWM Top 200, which is pretty respectable. In fact, it finished 4th out of the the whole B&W era, so I do think this 'Tomb has fallen from grace' thing is really built up as yet another fan myth/chinese whispers.

I did chuckle to myself at the results, seeing the TVM being beaten by 'Mission To The Unknown'! And surely now, any fan that thinks it's a realistic idea that 2|e would renegotiate the contracts with everyone for 'Dimensions In Time', must now see why that would never happen.....

Also, some of the CDs of missing stories are very hard to find now. Don't expect to pick up The Savages for less than £50 for example!

That's interesting to know, I'd been thinking about selling most of my collection!

[Rob McCow]

so I do think this 'Tomb has fallen from grace' thing is really built up as yet another fan myth/chinese whispers.

Heh, it's easy to get the wrong impression about this. I'm sure people have said 'Well I like Tomb, but most other people think it's a bit naff!'

So there's this great mysterious mass of people who don't really like Tomb somewhere.

[Si Hunt]

Also, some of the CDs of missing stories are very hard to find now. Don't expect to pick up The Savages for less than £50 for example!

I'm surprised, shocked and a little annoyed at this, even though I sort of feel I should one day finish collecting all these, even though there's no point when I have the recon.

But - why is "The Savages" near impossible to get (£89 on Amazon!) when "The Smugglers" is still £4.99p new?

Si.

[Perry Vale]

£89 is completely ridiculous! There's a copy on ebay at the moment, still below £7 with 4 days to go & 8 people watching....

[Matthew T]

Looking at completed listings on ebay, it seems to finish anywhere between £20 - £40, with several copies having been sold recently. When it's rarity was first mentioned on OG there was one solitary copy at over £50. Maybe since it's rarity got out people have been selling their copies.

Fury From The Deep is also rare and expensive.

[Simon R]

The Target book gives you the storyline.

But the Target books often vary from the TV version. "Galaxy 4" and "Edge of Destruction" have whole scenes added that make them a lot more exciting!

[Dino]

I've bought the mag! I can join in on this one!

Interesting to see the one that always won these polls when I last read DWM (in 1993) is in bronze postition? And it appears to have gone up from it's 1998 rating? (it must have fell from grace when I turned my back!)
Don't all that agree with number 1 but am happy with it.
"Honestly, really?" for number 2.
4 should be were 2 is, 9 would be my top spot and McCoy should have charted higher than 14. And I'll swap you 40 for 11, 28 swap with 20 and 10 is greater than 6 and 5.
Of course once everyone gets their copy, I'll edit this post to put the proper names in!

[Rob McCow]

"Honestly, really?" for number 2.

Oh yes, oh really! Some people found it scary. There'll be a proper backlash against the story one day though

[Pip Madeley]

Tomb and Fury = EPIC WINS.

[Rob McCow]

Yeah but you haven't actually seen Fury....

[Jason Thompson]

Tomb is a weird one. I love it, but by very few means could it be termed objectively good. The sets look great but sound like the wood they are (listen when the Doctor slides the controls to open the two doors from the control room); the wires and dummy controller are legendary; the Cybercontroller smashes dramatically through some very obvious polystyrene and tinfoil; one of the Cybermen has a big rip under one arm; rope and shoring timber appear out of nowhere just when they are needed on two separate occasions (one of which is outside the doors they have only recently exposed by blowing up the rock face!); the archaeologists are surprised by the Doctor's revelation that there are two doors in the control room, despite them having very obvious frames and huge Cyber-head logos above them; Toberman dramatically reveals his cybernetic arm by raising it out of shot... and the list goes on. You could argue that some of these are only now appreciated because we have the episodes, but there is one big problem that even the audio should have made obvious to anyone: the plot is rubbish.

Oh, I don't mean the 'intellectual trap' aspect, or the logicians on the crew having their own agenda. The smaller issue occurs in part 4, when the Doctor, for some inexplicable reason, feels the need to actually turn on the revitaliser once the Controller is inside it, despite it being seen in part 1 to be possible to close the door without turning on the projectors, thus ensuring that the, until then, dying Cybercontroller gets better and menaces everyone again. The larger one is a really basic flaw: the Cybermen ultimately lose because they a) put their recharging machine upstairs, and b) forgot to put an interior handle on the hatch. Even Klieg points out the logic of a control to open the hatch from the inside, but apparently the Cybermen forgot it. Result: they're stuck down there running out of energy. Had they had an interior control they could have just opened the hatch and taken the humans that way.

It's got some excellent performances, some nice visual touches, and the incidental music is perfectly judged. It's great fun to watch. But it's not a good story.

[Dino]

Oh yes, oh really! Some people found it scary. There'll be a proper backlash against the story one day though

That story did have scares and atmosphere...it just didn't have the life threatening challenges the other top ten stories did? Or much of the Doctor to be honest? And over 40 years to work out how to get his time machine back doesn't really compare with getting the time ring back during a genocide mission? Or trying to stop human DNA being re-written by an idiot, trying to cure Peri or even trying to outrace the radio waves travelling between planets to prevent a powerful alien being unleashed onto 1910's Earth? (The last one sounds so silly written down actually...)
Although the ending with random shots of statues was creepy...
as long as you don't mention Robert Holmes got there first with plastic!

[Rob McCow]

Nice critique of Tomb, Jason - though I'd say that the plot had a few big holes in it rather than being outright rubbish.

Although the ending with random shots of statues was creepy...

Actually, that was the bit I found most awful. It was tacked on at the end to say 'Statues! Are! Scary!' If it had been part of the story, with Sally walking around and being unsettled by statues around her, then fine. But it seemed a bit naff to me.

[Jason Thompson]

I'd say that the plot had a few big holes in it rather than being outright rubbish.

Fair point. The Doctor certainly seems to have a deathwish here though, opening the doors, pressing the buttons to open the hatch, allowing Klieg to revive the Cybermen just because he wanted to see what he was up to, and revitalising the Cybercontroller unnecessarily.

[Larry]

They did, but they didn't bring us actually to the story. It could still be disappointing if it ever turned up again and it's reputation could fall. But it might be as good as you say. I don't know, I've never seen it. Even with the telesnaps, recons and audios, it might still not be as good as you think it is.

that's exactly how I feel about Marco Polo, people rave about it but having seen the tele snaps I can't help feeling it looks a very long ands boring story. I've always felt that a lot of these missing stories don't really justify their good reputation and only have it simply because they are missing .