Were Holmes and Watson gay lovers?

[MinaHarker]

Or, at the very least, was Watson in love with Holmes?

I say yes, Jason says no.

[Rob McCow]

I reckon: No, but they did smoke opium together.

[Dino]

I say no, But that's only because for all his crime solving genius Holmes is the last person you'd want to be the lover of?
Imagine how under the microscope you'd be? And being constantly analysed and belittled in "jest"?
If Watson was his lover he'd well cheat on him!

[Rob McCow]

Sherlock Holmes and the case of the missing sausage?

[Captain Tancredi]

Certainly not between 'The Sign of the Four' (where Watson meets, falls in love with and subsequently marries Mary Morstan) and 'The Empty House' (where Holmes returns to London and makes himself known to the now-widowed Watson having been presumed dead following 'The Final Problem').

To suggest otherwise is to overlook firstly ACD's conception of Holmes as somebody simply incapable of romantic emotion (except in a very handful of cases where he expresses admiration for a small number of women), and also that somewhere along the line, the Anglo-Saxon world in the last century or so has jettisoned a particular degree of intimacy between male friends so that outside a sporting context, anything other than a firm handshake is seen as suggestive of homosexuality.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Typical fem-fan with her slash fiction desires! [Kidding honest]

Actually it's an interesting take on it. At the time it was written, of course it was nothing of the sort. But now you can't help but looking at such a living arrangement in a different way as when Arthur Conan Doyle first penned those stories. Certainly it would be one way to explain his relationships with women.

[Andrew Curnow]

As regards 'living arrangement' I didn't think Watson permanently resided in Baker Street did he?

I'm no Holmes expert, but I don't think really there's anything in the books to suggest anything of the sort is there? Other than them being two blokes who spend a lot of time together, which seems pretty scant evidence to me.

Although it would certainly be a memorable Holmesian double act!

[Rob McCow]

I agree with Ian, that society's view of this sort of relationship has changed. In the Victorian era, I think I'm right in saying that homosexuality wasn't persecuted so much as completely unacknowledged. So there would be no question of two men who are very close being in a gay relationship, because it was in general unthinkable.

You could ask the same questions of Passpartout and Fogg, or Robinson Crusoe and Man Friday, possibly!

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Cat ... pigeons ...



Again - Eric and Ernie in comic sketches would often be in bed together ... something back then was just kind of funny, but today means something completely different.

And in the 1930s the very strict Hayes code meant you could not have a man and woman in bed together, even lying together fully clothed. Any yet this gets through the censors ...

[Stuart Wallis]

As regards 'living arrangement' I didn't think Watson permanently resided in Baker Street did he?

I'm no Holmes expert, but I don't think really there's anything in the books to suggest anything of the sort is there? Other than them being two blokes who spend a lot of time together, which seems pretty scant evidence to me.

Watson was married at least twice that we know of. (I've read that people who delve seriously into the continuity of the Holmes stories think as many as four times there are quite a few errors in them.) Holmes does refer to Watson's greater knowledge of women, which is not to say that Watson at least isn't at least bisexual, or using marriage as a front. He does move out of Baker Street altogether during his marriages though, but there are passing references to Watson flat-sharing with Holmes when he's starting to build up his practice, as a money-saving convenience. He does miss not being on cases with Holmes during periods when his practice (the medical one!) take up his time, but I read it that he misses both his friend and the crime-fighting. So Watson at least, I believe, is just friends with Holmes. Holmes, i've never given any serious thought to. Mysogyny doesn't neccessarily need to have any sexual reasoning behind it, and I've never seen anything in the stories that definately says that he's gay otherwise.

[Lord President]

This is almost as ridiculous as JK Rowling 'outing' Dumbledore! ACD never suggests any sexual undertones to the relationship, so why should we? Also, I think the poll results above are quite telling!

[MinaHarker]

Lord President - I *sincerely* hope that your tone is jesting.

[MinaHarker]

Watson writes about Homes as though he is in love with him in many ways. He almost wroships him, which is what got me thinking.

Interestingly, I have just this minute found a few links on Google which say that Jude Law's upcoming film plans to depict Holmes as gay (and possibly in a relationship with Watson).

Other related links:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/25/bo...detective.html
http://dis.4chan.org/read/book/1220537407/1-

I did once see a site with lots of quotes that drew attention to anything regarding relationships in the books, but unfortunately everything is now being swamped by the upcoming Jude Law film.

I thought this conversation might actually be an interesting discussion, anyone who wants to be hateful can go elsewhere please.

PS Yes, I like gay men. A lot. Happy?

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Watson writes about Homes as though he is in love with him in many ways. He almost wroships him, which is what got me thinking.

Interestingly, I have just this minute found a few links on Google which say that Jude Law's upcoming film plans to depict Holmes as gay (and possibly in a relationship with Watson).

I think it's been an interesting thread to put up Emma, and something we can all talk about like adults.

Personally I don't think they were. But I think if you were to write about two characters like that today in the society we live today, you couldn't help but see it as a gay relationship. I guess its a sign of how the world has moved on since.

Likewise if you look at Lord of the Rings, there is a deep and intimate friendship which forms between both Frodo and Sam, and Legolas and Gimli. I know for myself I've had deep and intimate friendships with other men (possibly even go so far as to say "love"), but not I think in a "gay way". Hope I've not outed myself there!

[Andrew Curnow]

I'm not quite sure why Lord P has come in for such a roasting above? He makes a perfectly valid point - I'm not an expert on Holmes, but unless there's anything actually in there to suggest they are gay then why should we claim there is? I certainly don't see anything "hateful" in his post, Emma.

That's not to say it's not an interesting topic for discussion, clearly it is, but I don't see anything wrong with a definitive "No!". Indeed, you could argue a case that suggesting two men couldn't possibly enjoy spending time with each other UNLESS there was a sexual element to their relationship, is in fact cheapening their relationship.

[MinaHarker]

I'm not quite sure why Lord P has come in for such a roasting above? He makes a perfectly valid point - I'm not an expert on Holmes, but unless there's anything actually in there to suggest they are gay then why should we claim there is? I certainly don't see anything "hateful" in his post, Emma.

That's not to say it's not an interesting topic for discussion, clearly it is, but I don't see anything wrong with a definitive "No!". Indeed, you could argue a case that suggesting two men couldn't possibly enjoy spending time with each other UNLESS there was a sexual element to their relationship, is in fact cheapening their relationship.

Lord President's use of the word "ridiculous" and his rude dismissal of my ideas was offensive to me, but I certainly do not think my comment to him was "a roasting". Nor did I say his post was hateful - just that anyone who was going to be hateful just just not post instead.

I don't think Holmes and Watson had a physical relationship, I don't think Holmes was interested in anything like that with anyone. However, I think Watson was in love with Holmes in many ways. Imagine for a moment that Holmes was female, and Watson wrote about her with the same passion and admiration - many people would then insist that there was a romantic attachment.

I don't believe that two men cannot be close without a sexual element, in fact I think that is something modern men miss out on. Women form deeper friendships among other women, in my opinion, than men do with other men these days. I think that is quite sad.

[Paul Monk]

Have you ever seen the The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes by any chance?

As for Watson being in love with Holmes, I don't think that there's anything in this although he certainly hero worships him which could be seen as a form of love.
There could also be an argument that as Watson writes up the stories he exaggerates Holmes' abilities somewhat.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Imagine for a moment that Holmes was female, and Watson wrote about her with the same passion and admiration - many people would then insist that there was a romantic attachment.

It's an interesting point. Thinking about it I had a girlfriend at University who was in some ways very like Holmes, an absolute genius. But emotionally she was hard work.

[Antony Cox]

PS Yes, I like gay men. A lot. Happy?

I think several of us would've known if that wasn't the case...

[MinaHarker]

Have you ever seen the The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes by any chance?

As for Watson being in love with Holmes, I don't think that there's anything in this although he certainly hero worships him which could be seen as a form of love.
There could also be an argument that as Watson writes up the stories he exaggerates Holmes' abilities somewhat.

I haven't seen it, I've really only read the books.

It is true that Holmes says to Watson once or twice that Watson exaggerates, but as the stories are told from Watson's viewpoint it is hard to know if this is the case, if Sherlock Holmes is being very modest or if Watson wishes to present Holmes as being very modest.

[Rob McCow]

Let's have a look at some of the 'clues'. I'm going to go for things that are generally known about Holmes (asexual?) as I don't have any of the specifics to hand.

1. The best known fact about Baker Street's finest detective is that he was a genius. There are traits that go with that, such as dedication, single-minded focus and the inability to form relationships. This could be coupled with a reduced sex-drive, as his energy is poured into his work.

2. He smoked a pipe. Pipe-smoking is a very masculine activity.

3. He plays the violin. But he plays it solo, with no mention of forming a string-quartet or forming part of an orchestra.

4. Opium use leads to a decreased sex drive (by most accounts!)

5. The Butler did it.

So, my friends, the only option left to us is that I don't really know.

[Logo Polish]

He was a user of cocaine rather than opium, unless he had both.

[Captain Tancredi]

There are one or two stories where he goes undercover in opium dens- whether he inhales, so to say, is left to the imagination, although presumably he wouldn't have wanted to look conspicuous.

Another thought occurred to me the other night- Holmes is the literary creation of a medical doctor, and Watson is to an extent an authorial self-portrait. I've no idea of what Arthur Conan Doyle was taught about such things but it may well have been the case that medical schools in the 19th century considered homosexuality to be a form of physical or mental illness (a good annotated 'Hound of the Baskervilles' will tell you about some of ACD's researches into hereditary syphilis). And if you read anything about ACD the man, although he was by all accounts intelligent, humane and a gifted prose writer, he was still very conventional by modern standards. Considering that he was writing at the same time as Oscar Wilde, he really doesn't come across as the sort of writer who would want to put a gay subtext into his most popular work.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

That's a really interesting post Tancredi, thanks.

[Paul Monk]

Ok then. Time for another hot Holmes debate!

Was Holmes autistic? He certainly displays some Asbergers characteristics, I think.