3.5 Mona Lisa's Revenge

[SiHart]

Another great episode tonight as the Mona Lisa came to life and menaced the SJA gang with a Sontaran Blaster!

Who spotted the City of Death in jokes then? I got the Chinese Puzzle Box one and of course "The Mona Lisa is no longer in the Louvre"...

Si xx

[Dino]

I enjoyed the episode but I felt there were a few things that didn't work with me?
The script between the regular cast didn't seem as natural as it had been over the previous stories. I know it's a children's drama but they've had the dialogue just right so far.
It's a terrific concept and threat but has the Mona Lisa's perfomance cost them the Children's BAFTA?

That said George from Drop The Dead Donkey was in it and it's good to know he's still working.

I'll see how the second part goes but it seemed like a slight throwback to the earlier series with the "Untidy bedroom/Sarah Jane as a Mum" routine?
And once again it has seen one of the team think the others are sick of them?
(Last time it was Rani being decieved by Eve's mirror)

Still loving it though! Can't wait to see how this series ends!

Although do my opinions count as all the "City of Death" jokes flew over my head? ...sorry...

[SiHart]

It's OK, I'm just especially tuned in to City of Death in-jokes I suspect.

It's funny, but after last week I found I really hadn't missed Luke very much. The other two are much better, aren't they?

Si xx

[Dino]

Given Luke plays the not totally human his perfomance gets a bit left behind.
It's not TNG's Data bit it's not untamed savage, I'm not even sure Luke's performance is in the middle of that range?

Clyde could carry the show on it's own but then would it have been commisioned without Sarah Jane? (who is still the best thing in it of course!)

[shada pavlova]

The episode was a good opener and all, but I just can't stop the fanwank gland in my head acting up over the fact that this CANNOT be the real Mona Lisa, but everyone is acting like it is!

Also, whhen Mona Lisa said that she'd heard Sarah Jane's name somewhere before, just for a moment, I hoped against hope for a revelation that Leonardo was actually an alien, and that the 4th Doctor and Sarah actually defeated him once (hence the "see you earlier" letter in City of Death).

[Rob McCow]

Well, I loved this week's episode as well. Even the 'Sonic Scarlet - my favourite colour!' line. I suppose even when the dialogue is a little below par it's such a hoot that it doesn't matter.

It was great to see The Mona Lisa in action and the Mona Lizo reporting on it! Though the Mona Lisa's accent is so very wrong. Shouldn't she at least be slightly Italian?

Loved the terrified faces everyone pulled when they were sucked into the paintings.

Did anyone else spot the return of Platform One from 'End of the World'?

[Perry Vale]

Did anyone else spot the return of Platform One from 'End of the World'?

Immediately!

Well that was fun. A couple of the performances seemed misjudged for my taste (the Curator, for one), but Suranne, Clyde & Rani saved it. The girl who plays Rani has markedly improved this year, and shows some great promise.

Anyone who knows my postings on PS would know that I was never going to not enjoy something with Suranne in, and it pleases me to see her finally escape the clutches of the ITV Drama department, which seemed to be churning out the same part for here time after time. It was an added bonus that I had no idea she was going to be in it, having avoided most of the casting announcements in the press.

[Logo Polish]

Isn't the premise for this one "Fear Her" in reverse?

[Rob McCow]

Isn't the premise for this one just like Demontage? Or that Sapphire & Steel with the pictures?

Though I did think of Fear Her while watching it. Chloe Webber could turn up, but she'd have to be three years younger than she was in Fear Her.

[shada pavlova]

Okay, I am now VERY ANNOYED.

For a start, the Mona Lisa is JUST A PAINTING. This fact is EXPLICITLY established in fully canon media. If the Mona Lisa really is an alien, how come the Fourth Doctor didn't notice this when he licked and smelled all the Mona Lisas in part 2 of City of Death?

And now I come to think of it, this isn't even the original Mona Lisa! It's the one that was nearest the wall (the only one that wasn't damaged in the fire)! So even if the original Mona Lisa was made of alien paint (which by the way was a VERY cop-out explanation, IMHO), it should have been destroyed thirty years ago!

Okay, rant over. But I'm still angry!

However, kudos must be given for the Talons in-jokes. And also, was that technically K-9 Mark 5?

[Logo Polish]

Okay, I am now VERY ANNOYED.

For a start, the Mona Lisa is JUST A PAINTING. This fact is EXPLICITLY established in fully canon media. If the Mona Lisa really is an alien, how come the Fourth Doctor didn't notice this when he licked and smelled all the Mona Lisas in part 2 of City of Death?

It isn't an alien in itself though, it was just that the paint had been in contact with an alien substance. Wouldn't necessarily be detectable by touch or smell.

And now I come to think of it, this isn't even the original Mona Lisa! It's the one that was nearest the wall (the only one that wasn't damaged in the fire)! So even if the original Mona Lisa was made of alien paint (which by the way was a VERY cop-out explanation, IMHO), it should have been destroyed thirty years ago!

They were all painted about the same time though, so perhaps Da Vinci used the same paints for them all? Would there have been seven Suranne Joneses running about at Scarlioni's place if they'd come to life there in the earlier story?

Rather a silly story overall though, not really my sort of thing. Didn't help that Jones looked nothing like the painting anyway.

[Dino]

It didn't pick up for me either in this part and it was as if the script writer was distracted in the series script conference and produced something exactly like the first series after being told not to produce something like the first series? I should have used subtitles as I missed most of the references but I'll be watching it again to see what those were only?
It was pretty dull by their standards and as for next weeks story, did everyone elses hearts sink and then go "Oh?..." in interest?

[shada pavlova]

It isn't an alien in itself though, it was just that the paint had been in contact with an alien substance. Wouldn't necessarily be detectable by touch or smell.

This is the Doctor we're talking about. He can tell what year it is, just by smelling! I think that he would know whether the paint is made of alien. He did mention that the pigment was definitely Leonardo's.

Also, the six copies were made after the original. Watch part 3 carefully.

[Andrew Curnow]

He did mention that the pigment was definitely Leonardo's.

The brushstroke, I think, not the pigment. (Doesn't the Doctor say it's as distinctive as a fingerprint?)

Also, the six copies were made after the original. Watch part 3 carefully.

Well, in the sense that they were painted one at a time, but I don't think there's anything to suggest Leo knocked up the original, and then months/years later knocked up some more - after all, Scaroth knew he wanted multiples, so he'd have made sure his Tancredi self was on hand at the right time.

Actually, quite opposite to Harry, I think the script very carefully didn't tread all over City of Death. The paint was 'living' and Leo used it without being aware of it - and the painting was/paintings were dormant throughout CoD.

Personally, I really enjoyed it, with the one reservation being the bizarrely Northern Mona Lisa (maybe lots of art galleries have a North?) which was so markedly 'in your face' that it's odd nobody in the story mentioned it! But that aside, I really enjoyed it, just as I enjoyed it when it was Demontage, and the cliffhanger image of SJS stuck in the painting was brilliantly done.

Not sure about next week though...

[Andrew Curnow]

BTW, the only thing that I always struggle with in City of Death, and have ever since 1979, is the idea that Leonardo could actually paint seven identical pictures. You'd realistically expect the brushwork to be different in each one (authentic, but different) as he's not a photocopier, he's a real person.

But I'll let it go, as the story is so darned good!!

[Logo Polish]

This is the Doctor we're talking about. He can tell what year it is, just by smelling! I think that he would know whether the paint is made of alien. He did mention that the pigment was definitely Leonardo's.

He's never been able to do absolutely everything, there wouldn't be any stories if he could. As it's never specified as to whether there are any physically detectable differences between those kind of paints, I don't think it's a problem. I think Andrew is right too, that it it's just the brushwork he refers to.

Also, the six copies were made after the original. Watch part 3 carefully.

They were painted after, but in the same period. Doesn't necessarily have to have been on the same day.

Alternatively if you're still not happy with any of that, just pretend that the story never happened. Or that this series and all the other new stuff, is occupying a separate (ahem) canon from the old one. Or something.

[shada pavlova]

I think Andrew is right too, that it it's just the brushwork he refers to.

Okay, proof time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDJYyx-dZsw

Alternatively if you're still not happy with any of that, just pretend that the story never happened. Or that this series and all the other new stuff, is occupying a separate (ahem) canon from the old one.

Don't tempt me...

[Andrew Curnow]

You've too much time on your hands, SP!!!

Turns out he does mention the pigment (although he mentions the brushwork first, so there)!! But I don't think that really matters anyway - Mona Lisa is clearly in its/her 'dormant' state there, so what would be there for the Doctor to notice? I'm no expert on painting, but the pigment I guess refers to how the paint has been mixed (is that right) so presumably Leo borrowed some 'raw' colours from his mad neighbour (hence the living paint) but then mixed them together himself, in his own (apparently distinctive!) way.

Dear Lord, I can't imagine what it's going to be like next week, when The Monsters Inside gets another canonical point by the appearance of the Blathereen in SJA...

[Logo Polish]

Okay, proof time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDJYyx-dZsw

Right, but if he just means the pigment is the same as on the original Mona Lisa, it wouldn't make any difference, if the same paints were used for that and all of the copies.

Pigments are only part of what goes into paint anyway. From Sci-Tech Encyclopedia.

A finely divided material which contributes to optical and other properties of paint, finishes, and coatings. Pigments are insoluble in the coating material, whereas dyes dissolve in and color the coating. Pigments are mechanically mixed with the coating and are deposited when the coating dries. Their physical properties generally are not changed by incorporation in and deposition from the vehicle. Pigments may be classified according to composition (inorganic or organic) or by source (natural or synthetic). However, the most useful classification is by color (white, transparent, or colored) and by function. Special pigments include anticorrosive, metallic, and luminous pigments.

[Andrew Curnow]

Sydney Newman will approve no doubt, that this thread is now both entertaining AND educational.



Well, educational at least...

[shada pavlova]

Dear Lord, I can't imagine what it's going to be like next week, when The Monsters Inside gets another canonical point by the appearance of the Blathereen in SJA...

I'll tell you what it'll be like. I'll be bloody ecstatic. I'd like to see the likes of Zbigniev or Jason deny it now.

[Andrew Curnow]

If I might just prise the lid off my worm-filled can here...

You ought to bear in mind that some people probably don't even consider SJA canonical, so a mention of a book's characters in it is hardly going to be taken as final & conclusive proof. Agreed, the mention of Justicia in Boom Town probably means that, if you want to, you can take The Monsters Inside book as being 'official'*** and Rose's first real step on an alien world... But even then, that doesn't then mean that every other Who book is 'real'*** too.

I suppose we should be grateful you weren't around in the days of Marion von Wer, who didn't even consider the Colin Baker or Sylvester McCoy years as canonical...






***Whatever that means.

[Logo Polish]

I seem to remember she didn't count anything from The Leisure Hive onwards, at one time certainly.

[Andrew Curnow]

Could well be, maybe I'm misremembering. I just had a feeling that she'd considered Androzani to be the 'last' story in her canon. But either way, it was some considerable way short of Survival (and now I think about it, I can't recall what her view on the TVM was).

[Si Hunt]

I really liked this one. Series 3 has tuned into what the TRUE ethos of this series should be, where Series 2 didn't, I don't think. It's hard to describe what I think this "ethos" should be, but the audios had it all along - Childrens TV adventures flavoured with odd everyday intrusions (the audio set in the Supermarket is an example). It's not the place for "big" returning Who monsters which was why last years overblown finale lost it; but episodes this year like this one, a strange painting in an art gallery (this series should be about art gallerys and school trips and things kids can identify with) coming to life has absolutely nailed the vibe.

I loved the plot of this one - an alien rock producing paints that were used to paint the Mona Lisa is a great idea. Suranne Jones stole the show with a great performance, and I loved the effects of the paintings coming to life. If only the Mona Lisa had 'winked' for a final shot.

Every now and then, someone comes along in this series and gives a proper "Childrens TV" performance; it's not wholly unwelcome, but it is a little jarring when everyone else plays it straight. Remember the gurning guy from "Revenge of the Slitheen"? The curator bloke (Mr Range from "Frontios"; did you realise?) did it again here.

Apart from that though, a brilliant story. Missed Lis in Part 2 but obviously some episodes have to be Lis Light to give her a break; and clever how she was still sort of present throughout via the painting. Incidentally, didn't it make her look like Nerys Hughes?

And Dino Cloud is absolutely right, Leonardo painted ALL seven Mona Lisa's, that was the whole point (the line about the pigment is there to make that exact point - they are ALL originals) so there's no reason why he didn't use the same paints for all of them.

One question though - how did Lisa have legs that wern't in the painting, when the Highwayman (woman, surely?) didn't have a mouth because it wasn't painted in?

Also why couldn't she exist outside the gallery? Was this ever explained?

Si.