Rate And Discuss 4.18: The End Of Time, Part Two

[Si Hunt]

I forgot to say how beautifully directed the moment when Wilf knocked four times was. A real "Ahhhhhh..." moment, and so understated. The Doctor looked sick to the core as he realised.

Si. :mobile

[cyberchris35]

I think the woman was an older Donna because when Wilf asked who the woman was the Doctor glanced over at Donna.

[Larry]

Glad someone is... but will they be tied into the Doctor's Mum (who may, or indeed may not be the Doctor's Mum as played by Claire Bloom) who I'm sure was described as The Weeping Angel in todays episode? Could she be coming back?

Si xx

or it could be Susan.

[shada pavlova]

Compassion?

Leela?

The Valeyard? ("And the new Valeyard could be a woman!")

Rodan?

Thalia?

...Sevrin?

[Stephen Morgan]

Ditto what Lissa and Si said, I couldn't have put all that into words myself.
I found the whole thing extremely satisfying and a fitting conclusion to the end of the Tennant era.

In the end I, nor Viv wanted him to go, he's been a great ambassador for the show, and I hope he continues to be so no matter where or what he will be doing in the future.
The time was ripe for him to go, and when he finally realised that, it was a heartfelt moment and this final story did him justice.
He shall be missed here as much as I missed Pertwee back in '75.
The trailer, which I missed at the end of Confidential looks awesome on the BBC site, and I think that come the spring we're in for another roller coaster of a ride, Smith was straight into action as soon as he regenerated and realised what was happening to the Tardis, I think he's gonna be a really good actor to play the doctor proving the show will be as popular as it was when Tennant was The Doctor.

[Si Hunt]

wasn't the Jessica Hynes scene lovely?

Si. :mobile

[Andrew Curnow]

Yes, I forgot to mention that, I particularly liked the Doctor's expression when she asked if he had been happy in the end.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

A lot better than the first part. Surprisingly little plot when you think about it really - Time Lords open up a gate and start coming through, Master stops them and dies (or disappears or something), Doctor saves Wilf and dies. But it didn't feel like it was massively padded, so can't really complain. That shaky head effect though... does anyone really think that looks good and not stupid? Oh and I thought it would actually have been much better without that last 15-20 minutes of indulgent piffle wandering around seeing everyone again. I'm supposed to be a fan and even I couldn't remember what on Earth was going on with Martha and Mickey, or even what Universe they're meant to be in now. I don't watch the Sarah Jane Adventures. And even though I remember Human Nature, I'd be surprised if many casual viewers had a clue what that bit was about. Or why the Doctor felt an urgent need to set Captain Jack up with an opportunity for yet more bum sex with his final minutes of life. Yes... thought that whole sequence was really rather indulgent and didn't really serve the story well at all.

But despite all that, I'd still give it 7 or 8. Not sure which yet though so I'll give it nowt for now

[Si Hunt]

I still don't really understand what happened to Donna.

The DoctorDonna energy seemed to be released in a blast, and then she was ok. Fine, but if this happened, why was the Doctor so worried about her "burning up"? He explained it as if it was a 'defence mechanism' that he knew about all the time? Why didn't he just introduce himself, duck while she did her blast wave thing, and then take her off travelling with him again?

Si.

[Alex]

Oh and I thought it would actually have been much better without that last 15-20 minutes of indulgent piffle wandering around seeing everyone again. I'm supposed to be a fan and even I couldn't remember what on Earth was going on with Martha and Mickey, or even what Universe they're meant to be in now. I don't watch the Sarah Jane Adventures. And even though I remember Human Nature, I'd be surprised if many casual viewers had a clue what that bit was about. Or why the Doctor felt an urgent need to set Captain Jack up with an opportunity for yet more bum sex with his final minutes of life. Yes... thought that whole sequence was really rather indulgent and didn't really serve the story well at all.

It was the Doctor's reward though wasn't it, to see all of his previous companions happy and / or safe. I loved it personally, knowing that he chose to do this with what were the final moments of his life.

I've just rewatched the ending, and loved it, but part of me wishes that he had been forced to kill the Master - shooting a machine just seemed too easy, akin to the big reset button at the end of Journey's Earth. Of course it would be out of character, as was stressed in the conversation between the Doctor and Wilf earlier, but if he literally had no choice it would have made for a more devastating ending - and tied in with the theme that a Timelord can live too long as well.

I still don't really understand what happened to Donna.

The DoctorDonna energy seemed to be released in a blast, and then she was ok. Fine, but if this happened, why was the Doctor so worried about her "burning up"? He explained it as if it was a 'defence mechanism' that he knew about all the time? Why didn't he just introduce himself, duck while she did her blast wave thing, and then take her off travelling with him again?

Aye, you make a good point there, it's something that really should have been handled better.

As for who "The Woman" was, someone on another forum posted this link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...-Whos-mum.html - though of course it's not exactly a definite answer. I wish in the final scene between Wilf and The Doctor he'd said that it was though, it'd have made it all even more poignant.

[Dino]

I just loved it.
Maybe I should watch all TV in the dark and on headphones in future?
Full marks and it still hasn't even sunk in what I've seen?
I reckon the woman could be The Doctor's wife? That's the impression I got from that shot and I'm glad it wasn't explained.
Is it a bit of foreshadowing for Stephen Moffatt?
Anyway, farewell David Tennant. Can't wait to watch both in succession!
I was going to write in the RTD Legacy thread this morning but "The End Of Time" is the best story he's written since Rose.
10/10

[Jamie McCrimmon]

But - oh dear - more tedious Doctor snogging the companion antics. *sigh*. It's just boring now.


Si.

It is. It's the only thing I really dislike about the new series, it just grates on me with its wrongness. Modern audiences must be less sophisticated than those of the 1960's-1980's, if they can't enjoy a show without the characters getting romantically involved.

I wasn't sure about last night's episode, I felt it was too crammed with stuff, a lot of which seemed to be there for the spectacle, making the story too confusing. I do hope John Simm returns, and I'm excited to see Matt Smith.

[Si Hunt]

It's gone beyond correcting something that oddly never happened and has now gone the other way. Why does the Doctor tongue every single friend he makes? Who does that? Has he got some sort of affliction?

I've just rewatched the ending, and loved it, but part of me wishes that he had been forced to kill the Master - shooting a machine just seemed too easy, akin to the big reset button at the end of Journey's Earth. Of course it would be out of character, as was stressed in the conversation between the Doctor and Wilf earlier, but if he literally had no choice it would have made for a more devastating ending - and tied in with the theme that a Timelord can live too long as well.

I knew he would never shoot the Master. I just knew it. Because everything that the Doctor, and the series, stands for was suddenly up there on trial in that moment. He is the "man who never would" and there's ALWAYS another way. That was the point.

Si.

[Paul Monk]

That was really lovely, I thought. The ending was perfect if massively self indulgent but thats ok, I'll forgive RTD, even if he did write in his own Russell Tovey fantasy.
The final choice the Doctor made was very sad as was his final words. Poor Tabby cried and got very upset bless her and she's only 5.

[Rob McCow]

I was going to write in the RTD Legacy thread this morning but "The End Of Time" is the best story he's written since Rose.

Rose is still a top episode for me - now with added nostalgia!

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Well thanks to the wonder of the space-time vortex we get the New Year early and Doctor Who late in NZ relative to you UKers!

Right I saved up part one and two to watch back to back, which was a bit of a cheat, but as we were on holiday I didn't want to repeat the week of agonising wait I had between the Stolen Earth/Journey's End.

So how can you sum up the whole experience? Not easily - I liked, and kind of didn't like in all kinds of measures.

Timothy Dalton was simply superb. What a shame he seemed so underused. I kind of wish there were some scenes between him and Tennant, but what there was was mainly shouty stuff.

The Master was okay, but again they kind of completely reimagined him as Smith from the Matrix - which was just unfortunate.

Bernard Cribbins was brilliant as his companion.

And of course there is David Tennant. Over the two hours there were moments I felt his Doctor had got to the point where it almost felt like a characture, sometimes quite tiresome (the whole bit where he goes on about taking a few detours before coming to the Ood in part 1). But then again moments when he took it in a different direction and showed you something amazing, which reminded you why you so love his Doctor (well I have).

And the ending - loved the bit with Wilfred Mott knocking 4 times - it reminded me very much of Caves of Androzani, and the Doctors decision there to save a single life.

I didn't like the dragged out ending though. I know it was nice to see a finale to the whole RTD support cast who I doubt will be used much in the new series. However it felt a bit corny and reminded me how Return of the King just went on and on with the goodbyes and the operatic warbling to tell you they were saying goodbye. Hmm you could even point out that the Masters turning at the end to save everyone does mirror Gollums final act in ROTK.

And it is a shame the Time Lords aren't back. I do like the new direction they're going in (as out and out villains), so hopefully there's enough of a loophole to get the occasional evil Timelord story (well we still get the Daleks on a regular basis).

The story of course marks quite emotionally the end of an era - 5 years of stories and the passing of a torch. And it has been a span which has been a lot of fun ... roll on Matt Smith.

[Si Hunt]

I didn't like the Song of the Ood bit simply because it should have been beautiful but I don't find that kind of overblown, choral music beautiful at all. I'd have been more moved if it had sounded like a solitary piano, or something unearthly and radiophonic.

I did love the theme of the Doctor not wanting to go though. I loved how he got cross when he realised he would save Wilf, because he was never, ever NOT going to. And how apt were those final words, from a Doctor that loved life so much? Poor old Wilf, "What did you ever do? You're not important. But I can do so much more. It isn't fair". But the Doctor knows he has to do the right thing, and will do.

He went as he came in, loving life.

Si.

[SiHart]

I'd have been more moved if it had sounded like a solitary piano, or something unearthly and radiophonic.

Like the bit that's playing when he stumbles back to the TARDIS on the Powell Estate. That was great and had a hint of otherwordlyness and oddness that is sometimes missing from Murray Gold's music.

Si xx

[egdcltd]

We haven't seen the Time Lords actually destroyed, just (apparently) sent back into the Time War and under Time Lock again. The lock has been broken once, so maybe it will be easier to break it again. Should mystery women be Donna, the only way she would have been able to get to Gallifrey would be if the Time Lock was broken, as it prevents travel to Gallifrey completely, past, present and future.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Yeah - it still didn't explain what was so special about Wilf, or what his mission as the old soldier was supposed to be? Or did I miss that?

Certainly there's now enough of a loophole for a couple of Time Lords to be out and about in the Universe. I loved the idea that the war had turned them into something perhaps worse than Daleks.

[Captain Tancredi]

Oh, I think judging by the tender look her gave the woman, but the bile with which he spat Rassilon, he was deffo referring to the President.

We already know from 'Utopia' et al that the Master was revived by the Time Lords to serve in the Time War, so I took it that they'd gone down the same road again to release Rassilon from the Dark Tower to take charge of the conduct of the war. A little bit like the way the post-war French government recalled de Gaulle and gave him extra-constitutional powers when the Algerian situation began to get out of control.

[Andrew Curnow]

Good point. Slightly off topic, but I can never hear De Gaulle's name without thinking of how they used to describe him on Allo Allo!

[WhiteCrowNZ]

We already know from 'Utopia' et al that the Master was revived by the Time Lords to serve in the Time War, so I took it that they'd gone down the same road again to release Rassilon from the Dark Tower to take charge of the conduct of the war. A little bit like the way the post-war French government recalled de Gaulle and gave him extra-constitutional powers when the Algerian situation began to get out of control.

I like that theory - wonder if he brought with him all those who tried to gain immortality.

[Antony Cox]

I didn’t think much of it, to be honest.

It didn’t seem to have a coherent storyline so most of it went over my head. And I couldn’t help feeling it was more of a ‘goodbye RTD’ than a farewell to the Tenth Doctor, with all the little ‘re-visits’ at the end.

Having said that, there were some nice moments with Wilf, as always; Bernard Cribbins always gives value for money. And despite all the above, I don’t mind admitting that at the moment we first saw the New Doctor, something welled up inside me and I cried for a moment. I guess that overwhelming feeling when this happens in Doctor Who will always be with me.

[Antony Cox]

I didn’t think much of it, to be honest.

It didn’t seem to have a coherent storyline so most of it went over my head. And I couldn’t help feeling it was more of a ‘goodbye RTD’ than a farewell to the Tenth Doctor, with all the little ‘re-visits’ at the end.

Having said that, there were some nice moments with Wilf, as always; Bernard Cribbins always gives value for money. And despite all the above, I don’t mind admitting that at the moment we first saw the New Doctor, something welled up inside me and I cried for a moment. I guess that overwhelming feeling when this happens in Doctor Who will always be with me.