Rate And Discuss 4.18: The End Of Time, Part Two

[Logo Polish]

Maybe Dalton's character was just... someone else called Rassilon? In the same way that a modern leader could be called Alexander, without having to be Alexander the Great. There doesn't have to have been only ever one Time Lord with that name, does there?

[Si Hunt]

No, but I think it was probably intended to be Rassillon.

Si.

[Andrew Curnow]

I suspect it was thrown into the mix to give the fans something to discuss. It doesn't destroy continuity however you interpret it.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Can someone explain what the George Noble/lottery ticket thing was all about? The only George Noble I've heard of is a darts referee

Well... I presume he's some part of the Noble family in Doctor Who, maybe a dead one or something, and I'm presuming the lottery ticket is a winning one and will make Donna really rich or something, but I can't say I really got what that scene was about.

[Lord President]

Loved it, a great send off to a great Doctor. 9/10

Wilf made me cry!

Also, will Russell Tovey be the replacement Ianto in Torchwood? ;-)

[Stuart Wallis]

Better than part one, but still pretty average. It lost a point for the returning regulars part - very panto walk-down-the-stairs ending, and for being ambiguous about who Claire Bloom was supposed to be. That said, perhaps the look across at Wilf's granddaughter when he asked at the end... How did she get to warn Wilf though? And who was the other dissenter? were they anyone important?

Glad to see John Simm calmed down a bit, apart from the camp "spec-TAC-ulaaar" moment. The Time Lord bits were good; did anybody else remember back to the NAs watching the bits with the sage woman and think of the Pythia btw? Timothy Dalton and Bernard were top-notch, but June Whitfield might as well not have been in it - only two scenes in two-and-a-quarter hours? Tchah!

The plot actually deigned to turn up this time, although it was subserviant to the for once pretty decent character moments between the Doctor and Wilf at times; I'd just prefer to get the story on the move than have these moments. I found myself switching off mentally during the bit with the missiles, so I can't really comment on it.

The Doctor was understandably miffed by the prospect of dying; even so, I also found his having to die in order to save Wilf was out of character for him. He never complained about saving Peri or Rose, and saw logic in sacrificing himself when his third incarnation died. Overall, David seemed not to be on best form in both of these episodes, particularly the second one. Still, he's going to be remembered fondly I'd have thought. I did think he was going to go when he fell through the dome, thinking of Logopolis; and also when he absorbed the radiation - would he be standing up with a new face? Actually that's another reason I thought the last few minutes were a disappointment - there was room for a last minute twist, but there wasn't.

6/10

[Larry]

my 5 year old nephew has become a big Doctor Who, fan in the last year. He has watched pretty much all of David Tennets episodes and is now starting to watch some of the old series he watched Robots of Death the other day and really enjoyed it every time some one came on screen he was asking me is he is a baddie. I watched last nights episode with him and for an hour and 15 minutes he was totally captivated again asking lots of questions we watched it again this morning and the same result he followed that up by watching Stolen Earth and Journeys end. No doubt it thanks tro David Tennent (or as my nephew calls him David Tenna) that he has become such a fan but even at 5 years old he knows all about regeneration and is already asking me when the next episode of Doctor Who is and was quite dissapointed when I told him it will be around April.

[Stuart Wallis]

David Tenna

I could go somewhere with that.

But I won't!

[SiHart]

Can someone explain what the George Noble/lottery ticket thing was all about? The only George Noble I've heard of is a darts referee

Geoff was Donna's Dad, as seen in The Runaway Bride. Howard Attfield, who played him, sadly died just after they filmed Partners in Crime, for which he completed his scenes, but as he was central to the series in other stories they replaced him with Bernard Cribbins as Wilf.

Si xx

[Perry Vale]

I liked it, overall. Much, much better than what was served up for Christmas dinner, RTD got it just about right, and it was a great swansong for the tenth Doctor.

I say 'just about got it right', yet RTD still couldn't resist putting in moments that don't serve the plot, and are just there to 'look good'. Having the Doctor jump out of a spaceship hundreds of feet up and crashing to the ground through a glass ceiling was simply ridiculous, and channeled the spirit of Wile E.Coyote and Tom & Jerry. Shame.

On the plus side, there was no Doctor/Donna resolution, and we were spared any fan guff involving Paul McGann, or too much boring detail of the Time War. And Mickey & Martha are married!

And Matt Smith's sixty seconds were the most exciting thing since the closing minutes of Utopia.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Geoff was Donna's Dad, as seen in The Runaway Bride. Howard Attfield, who played him, sadly died just after they filmed Partners in Crime, for which he completed his scenes, but as he was central to the series in other stories they replaced him with Bernard Cribbins as Wilf.

Si xx

So... he went back in time to borrow a quid off him to buy a lottery ticket? He might not even have gone into the future afterwards to get the winning numbers, it might JUST be a lottery ticket

[MinaHarker]

A lot better than the first part. Surprisingly little plot when you think about it really - Time Lords open up a gate and start coming through, Master stops them and dies (or disappears or something), Doctor saves Wilf and dies. But it didn't feel like it was massively padded, so can't really complain. That shaky head effect though... does anyone really think that looks good and not stupid? Oh and I thought it would actually have been much better without that last 15-20 minutes of indulgent piffle wandering around seeing everyone again. I'm supposed to be a fan and even I couldn't remember what on Earth was going on with Martha and Mickey, or even what Universe they're meant to be in now. I don't watch the Sarah Jane Adventures. And even though I remember Human Nature, I'd be surprised if many casual viewers had a clue what that bit was about. Or why the Doctor felt an urgent need to set Captain Jack up with an opportunity for yet more bum sex with his final minutes of life. Yes... thought that whole sequence was really rather indulgent and didn't really serve the story well at all.

But despite all that, I'd still give it 7 or 8. Not sure which yet though so I'll give it nowt for now

RE: Martha and Mickey. NO-ONE knew that was who Martha had married. It was a cute surprise.

RE: Captain Jack. Perhaps the doctor set Jack up for a long-lasting relationship that would make a huge difference to his life (especially given the traumatic events both Jack and Alonso had been through not long before)? Your words "yet more bum sex" are offensive - would you say something similar if it were a man and a woman?

I thought part 2 was much better than part 1. The Master was cool, although the shaking head thing did look kind of funny.

Wilf had the mercy to let a frightened guy out of the locked compartment, and was willing to die rather than allow the Doctor to do so. It's not like a bumbling old guy wandered into a cupboard and got stuck, as was suggested upthread! I thought Bernard Cribbins gave an excellent performance - I was really drawn in and almost cried a couple of times.

I liked the green "cactus" people. Amazing how their ship still has gravity despite no power anywhere though! I also got a bit annoyed that the ship was invisible unless the power was on - that's ridiculous!

I loved the moment when Wilf knocked 4 times on the door - a fantastically sinking, shocking moment.

I wish we knew who the Gallifreyan woman was, and I didn't expect Timothy Dalton to be Rassilon. Cool!

I assume the regeneration was so violent because the Doctor resisted. Contrast with Logopolis - the Doctor was resigned to what was going to happen and actually seemed kind of happy, resulting in a peaceful regeneration.

Am I the only one who would like to wear Time Lord cloaks, with the big panels behind the head? Most people know how I feel about "Trial of a Time Lord" - but I do like The Inquisitor's hat. The Gallifreyans know where they are with headgear.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

RE: Martha and Mickey. NO-ONE knew that was who Martha had married. It was a cute surprise.

RE: Captain Jack. Perhaps the doctor set Jack up for a long-lasting relationship that would make a huge difference to his life (especially given the traumatic events both Jack and Alonso had been through not long before)? Your words "yet more bum sex" are offensive - would you say something similar if it were a man and a woman?

Well I knew that the fact that she'd married him was a new revelation, but I have no idea where/when they were or why they were fighting a Sontaran. The fact that they were married didn't really have much to do with my confusion. I fully accept the fact that there might have been some line about them going off to fight alien wars together or something at the end of the last series, I just have no recollection at all of what they were up to.

And the bit with Captain Jack. The whole exchange was a bit nudge-nudge wink-wink. Perhaps something may have blossomed into a long term relationship, but that scene was all rather Carry On innuendo-ish. Given that they are both male I assumed a bottom would be involved. And I said "yet more" because it's Captain Jack, and he's well known for bonking his way around the universe. Words aren't intrinsically offensive, it's all in the eye of the beholder. If you choose to be offended by my wording then that's okay, but they were intended to be flippant rahter than offensive, in line with my feelings about the scene itself being flippant and rather shallow-seeming. And I also have absolutely no idea at what point in Jack's timeline that was supposed to be, or even Midshipman Frame's for that matter, so I don't know how recent any traumatic events were for either of them. Frame was acting a little as if to suggest it was straight after the Titanic event for him, but Jack just seemed to be a guy in a bar.

[Paul Monk]

Emma, that was a good point about Wilf. He had just saved another persons life. It was easy to forget that.

[Andrew Curnow]

And it was done so neatly, that's why I think it worked - they set the cabinets up in part one, then in part two we almost just as a background detail see Wilf letting that guy out... and then suddenly out of nowhere it's the most significant of moments. Brilliant!

[FlyingBeastie]

FANTASTIC episode! 9/10

Everyone's said pretty much what I'm gonna say, in that it was great send-off and very fitting for Tennant. Even his last words, "I don't wanna go" are so fitting to his incarnation.

As for Wilf, I dunno why people are beating up on the old chap- he's been helping the Doctor the, I dunno, ENTIRE TIME. In fact, Wilf ran in and saw one of the lab tech guys freaking out in the other hut so he went in to let THAT GUY out. Wilf was saving someone, he didn't just lock himself in there. I love Wilf, he was a great companion- probably my favorite of all the companions RTD has introduced I dunno, I guess I have a sweet spot for working class pensioners

The only confusing thing was the Donna issue- I felt there could've been an explanation regarding whether she's okay or not (was there? cos' the wedding scene I'll admit I might've missed a line or two between the Doctor and Wilf)

Oh, and the Timelady isn't old Donna. Think about it- The Doctor looks at Wilf and then looks at Donna- who is Donna to Wilf? And the words she said, "I was lost so very long ago..."

Yeah, it's Susan methinks. And its obvious why they didn't hire the original actress- there'd be no mystery!

All in all, I enjoyed it very much- a major, MAJOR upgrade from part 1. I'm excited for Matt Smith, although I agree about the snogging

I liked Tennant, granted, even though he had 3 series, I still prefer Eccleston in waves as well as his regeneration I felt was more touching and intimate cos' there wasn't loads of epic music and, well, epicness, I still think he made a good Doctor and will miss seeing his cracked out grin shouting...well, shouting, full stop

[Si Hunt]

He never complained about saving Peri or Rose, and saw logic in sacrificing himself when his third incarnation died.

I think what we learned about regeneration in this story was that each Doctor is, of course, like a different man. And that man does actually DIE when he regenerates, even if he becomes a new one. The Tenth Doctor was very much a lover of life, and someone who felt he had "so much more to do". So just as each Doctor has a different personality, each has a different attitude to life and dying. This Doctor did not want to go.

Oh, and the Timelady isn't old Donna. Think about it- The Doctor looks at Wilf and then looks at Donna- who is Donna to Wilf? And the words she said, "I was lost so very long ago..."

But we just watched that shot again, and although he looks at Donna, who is framed in the foreground of the shot? It's her Mother. So we think the Doctor is looking at them as child and Mother, and perhaps this suggests that the woman is his Mother.

Now, some other stuff we noticed.

Interestingly, the White Woman is one of two Time Lords to "object" to the plan of returning. Rassillon says they have been brought along "as a monument" to their dissent. When they are about to return, he says something strange: "And the ancient Weeping Angels, and the Vanguard".

Who knows what the Vanguard is, but he seems to be indicating that the Weeping Angels are coming back with them - perhaps they are linked to Gallifrey somehow, and their return is recalled next season, when they come back?

Also, when the Time Lords are sent back, over the shot of Gallifrey fading, we hear a womans voice (is it the White Woman?) screaming "GALLIFREY BOY!" or something like that. What does that mean? It could be "Gallifrey Boils" but it actually isn't. She then says it again, but once more the end of the last word is inaudible. Strange.

Si.

[Andrew Curnow]

I can answer that last one. Apparently when filming the crew got friendly with a bunch of choristers, and the idea came that it would be nice to have them singing during the finale. As it turned out, due to timing reasons, that sequence was cut, but the beginning of the line cueing them in was accidentally left in. Thus the full cry from the woman would have been, "PARDON ME BOY, IS THAT THE CHATANOOGA CHOO CHOO". This scene may be included on the forthcoming Specials DVD Box Set.

[SiHart]

I don't think it's been mentioned anywahere else so far, but I absolutely loved the shot of Gallifrey with its dome cracked and the piles of destroyed Dalek ships outside the shield. #

Si xx

[Si Hunt]

Oh me too, lovely! Some lovely detail in that shot, like the gently smouldering broken pipe.

I like the Time Lord's table, with little alcoves in it for people to sit in. Great idea! Why arn't all tables like that!

Si.

[Rob McCow]

I like the Time Lord's table

It's the one from The Five Doctors! It blooming well is! Deffo!

[SiHart]

It's the one from The Five Doctors! It blooming well is! Deffo!

No it isn't. It's the Time Table.

It's funny how the whole situation was caused by a meeting that went off agenda. This is a warning to all of you who may be hosting mettings in the near future: You need to stick to the agenda and keep to it- or else chaos will reign and it'll be The END of TIME!

Si xx

[FlyingBeastie]

Well, I can't wait to see the next handsomer, quippier incarnation of Rassilon- Pierce Brosnan

[WhiteCrowNZ]

I think I ended up giving it 5/10. It had some great moments, but overall felt a bit of a mess.

Any part with Timothy Dalton in was just pure gold though.

But the drag on from him sacrificing to regenerating just went on forever. Which meant of course it lacked drama.

Overall with these specials though I kind of wish Tennant had just regenerated in Journeys End, because although I've found Tennant to be one of my favourite (possibly the favourite) Doctors, I have found the specials kind of weak, and not really adding anything. Journeys End really should have been the fitting swansong for him.

[Darren]

I absolutely loved it. 10 out of 10

I share the same positive views as most other posters. David Tennant was superb, especially at the end when he heard the four knocks and his bitterness and anger, not I think at Wilf, but at fate and life.
Bernard Cribbins gave another flawless performance, and John Simm played the Master with more depth, psychotic maybe, but conflicted, his scenes with the Doctor making me wonder if there is a sanity fighting to break through. And did he sacrifice himself at the end just for revenge?

The last ten minutes or so were touching and appropriate, his last goodbye. I loved the regeneration, taking hold gradually, as the radiation was slowly killing him.
"I don't want to go.."
I'm glad they didn't play games or try to be too clever at the end. I too believe the ferocity of the regeneration was the Tenth Doctor's anger and distress.

Which brings us to Matt Smith, who I think will be wonderful.

still don't really understand what happened to Donna.

The DoctorDonna energy seemed to be released in a blast, and then she was ok. Fine, but if this happened, why was the Doctor so worried about her "burning up"? He explained it as if it was a 'defence mechanism' that he knew about all the time? Why didn't he just introduce himself, duck while she did her blast wave thing, and then take her off travelling with him again

I can only presume that the energy would kill her if she regained her memories via the Doctor popping up and saying "Hi". However being triggered by a deadly threat, the Time Lord Donna defended herself, dispersing the energy.

The only thing I found unbelieveable was Martha and Mickey - married? Pull the other one. What about her doctor fiance?