An ugly side to us ...

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Two stories which kind of highlight a very ugly side to us. Both revolve around someone planning to commit suicide by jumping ...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/...mulled-suicide

A British radio DJ is being criticised for playing Van Halen's Jump as police tried to talk a suicidal woman down from a highway bridge last week.

A British mental health charity said it was horrified by the incident on Thursday morning, and would bring it up with Britain's media regulator.

Disc jockey Steve Penk, who owns Revolution Radio and hosts its morning show, said he played the song at the request of a commuter sitting in traffic on a highway shut down while police negotiators tried to talk the woman off the bridge. He said several commuters had called to express frustration at the delays. Penk said he made no reference to the woman in playing the song.

Which kind of reminded me of this story ...

http://www.japantoday.com/category/w...ath-in-england

Jeering onlookers goaded a teenager in Britain to jump to his death, undermining police efforts to talk him down, and then took pictures of the body, the MailOnline reported Wednesday. According to the paper, as 17-year-old Shaun Dykes prepared to jump from the top of a multi-story carpark in Derby, northern England, spectators allegedly shouted to him: “How far can you bounce?”

As Dykes hesitated for three hours on the ledge while police unsuccessfully tried to reason him out of taking his life, teenagers who had gathered below shouted “Jump” and “Get on with it,” according to police and witnesses.

Then after Dykes lay in a crumpled heap on the pavement, the same hecklers rushed out from behind the police cordon to take photos of the body.

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It is a kind of sad fact that there does seem to be this kind of harsh mentality at times in some of us - a complete lack of empathy for other people. I think they're both really ugly incidents which reflect badly on English people.

I wonder sometimes are we so wrapped up in our own concerns "tsk - I'm going to be late", that we care so little about other people's concerns.

[Si Hunt]

One of the hardest things in life is to ponder if - and why - you should care for other people. That sounds heartless, but the wider you look, the more you struggle. Here we are, billions of people living our little lives on a big globe in space. And over billions of years. I can understand why you would care, and want to keep safe, someone you have grown to love, but what's the REASON for caring about a stranger?

That said, I'm not condoning this heartless lack of respect for another persons problems. You should show respect by default, just because if everyone did it would make our lives easier. But it reminded me of the issue.

Si.

[Rob McCow]

I do not understand you. There are people dying all over your world yet you do not care about them.

It doesn't matter to you whether you help save the life of a stranger. It might matter to them, though.

[Jason Thompson]

I can understand why you would care, and want to keep safe, someone you have grown to love, but what's the REASON for caring about a stranger?

What's the reason for NOT caring? I'd prefer to care about people and possibly have strangers care about me when it comes down to it than have everyone indifferent to all but a select few.

[Si Hunt]

But just because you care about strangers, does not mean that next time you need help from a stranger he will care about you.

Do we really care about people dying on the other side of the world, or do we just WANT to care? We don't give to every appeal we read about, and does that bother us? Why is a person starving on the other side of the planet less important than a stranger about to jump off a bridge in front of us? They arn't, but we can't physically care about everyone in peril - or we'd be living in a constant state of panic.

Si.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

It doesn't matter to you whether you help save the life of a stranger. It might matter to them, though.

Excellently put.

But just because you care about strangers, does not mean that next time you need help from a stranger he will care about you.

Yes of course it doesn't work like that. I dunno but I was brought up thinking you should show compassion and empathy towards people even and perhaps especially if they'd not show it back to you. There's a famous incident where I stopped someone getting glassed by their girlfriend by stepping in - but I wasn't thanked, in fact I was threatened. But I knew it was the right thing to do.

And alas the stories above are not about people as a mob not showing compassion. It's worse that that, it's actually wishing ill on someone and jeering them on. I really hope you'd not be one of the crowd encouraging someone on, whilst whipping out your mobile phone. But maybe you would?

There's a circle around each of us where we can influence and make a difference. To talk about not being able to save people on the other side of the world is missing the point.

[Si Hunt]

If you think I would jeer and take a photo of a fresh corpse... Well it doesn't deserve correcting. You think as you like. If you know me, you'd know what I'd do.

Si. :mobile

[Alex]

One of the hardest things in life is to ponder if - and why - you should care for other people. That sounds heartless, but the wider you look, the more you struggle. Here we are, billions of people living our little lives on a big globe in space. And over billions of years. I can understand why you would care, and want to keep safe, someone you have grown to love, but what's the REASON for caring about a stranger?

That said, I'm not condoning this heartless lack of respect for another persons problems. You should show respect by default, just because if everyone did it would make our lives easier. But it reminded me of the issue.

Si.

My (admittedly very) personal take is this: In a godless universe, which is utterly chaotic and existance is utterly pointless, the only reason to live is to try and make it better for others. Be it via charity or other types of acts of kindness.

Of course it's impossible to help everyone who needs it, but I try to do what I can and I want to do more. I have looked in to it, and as soon as my leg's back to normal I plan to really get involved further.

[Rob McCow]

I think Si's point is valid in some ways. There are billions of people on this planet and it's hard to honestly care about people who you will never meet. Certainly not in the same way you'd care about your family or friends.

What's more, one thing that is certain is that everyone will die eventually. Whether of diseases, accidents, violence or whatever.

But I think we should still do at least something to reduce the amount of suffering in the world.

[Andrew Curnow]

Reading Si's post, I'm sure he'd agree. But isn't what he's asking (I might be wrong, so please correct me if I am Si!!) WHY do we all in general think that? We hear about the animal world, all that survival of the fittest stuff, so WHY do humans care about other people? I think that's his point. And it's a good question!

[SiHart]

I suppose that's what makes us different to other animals- that awareness of the rest of our species and the rest of our world. Our compassion as a race is a good thing, even if we can't always do as much to help the whole world as we might hope want to. It's almost impossible to comprehend (much like this post I suppose) or at least take in trying to do something to help someone on the other side of the world.

My view, such as I can explain it at 8.15 in the morning, is that probably all most of us can do is help the people within our sphere of influence. That's really all we can have control of. You can't help every charity in the world, you certainly can't help every person in the world, but you can make a difference in a small way by helping out people around you. I listen to people's worries at work, help them find information to help when they're fighting illnesses, help people find new ways to find that information for themselves, and work with community associations and charities to improve our immediate environment. I give money to Great Ormond Street as a way of giving something back after they saved my nephew's life back in 2001 and did a major heart op on my neice in 2006. They're only little things really, but if everyone does little things it begins to help in a big way.

Si xx

[Jon Masters]

My (admittedly very) personal take is this: In a godless universe, which is utterly chaotic and existance is utterly pointless, the only reason to live is to try and make it better for others. Be it via charity or other types of acts of kindness.

Interesting - most major religions would emphasise the duty of care we have for our fellow man, some going even further to encourage such care for our enemies as well. They would say that our compassion for the world around us reflects the 'seed of God' or spirit etc. within us all.

Looking beyond the advantages of living as a social animal, there is no evolutionary or genetic advantage to caring for anyone outside your own genetic bloodline - especially if it reduces your own chances of successfully passing on your genes. The 'natural selection way' suggests you should be actively competing against the 'not-we' to gain their resources. Not something that atheistic Darwinian spokespeople seem keen to emphasise !

Logic would seem to dictate that if existence is pointless, then the maxims of looking after yourself first, or at least 'do no harm' make more sense than any kind of altruism.

(Just to be clear, I'm not having a go at you Alex )

[Si Hunt]

Just to make it clear, I'm asking these questions because I wonder what your answers will be; because I question them myself, not to enforce either point of view.

When you step in to help someone, what are trying to protect? You don't know that person, so on sense is it because you feel for them or think they "deserve" saving? Is it because you know that doing so will make YOU feel better about yourself, even subconciously (stop me if I'm getting too honest). Or are you fighting for the joys and the experiences they will have in the future if they survive?

Si.

[Alex]

Oh I see your point completely Jon, and don't take it personally at all! Infact it resonates with me, as during my early twenties I became a bit like that - I felt that some people had taken advantage of the way I'd acted previously, and became a lot more hedonistic and only cared for those directly around me.

But after a bit of a breakdown around 28-29 I realised I didn't like the person I'd become, so did everything that I could to change my ways. It's a bit too personal a story to go in too, though, so I can't really expand upon it further. Other than that despite it being a horrible period in my life, I'm really glad that it did take place.

[Si Hunt]

This thread inspired me to give up my seat for someone on the train this morning. We were only 15 minutes from Liverpool St but for some reason she obviously really wanted to sit down because she had been standing a while, and when someone got up she went for his seat. However, another woman who had just got on didn't see her and got to it first. So the tired woman said "Oh, you probably didn't see me going for that seat" and the quick woman replied "No, sorry I didn't!" but she still stayed in the seat!! Amazing. So I gave mine to the tired woman, who was very grateful.

Why did I do this? I don't know. I guess on some level it made me feel good about myself. Also I was bored of sitting down! And I thought the tired woman deserved the seat she so valiantly fought for and lost!

Si.

[Jon Masters]

And I don't think you need to have any greater reasons or purpose behind what you did that those you said.

I think sometimes the whole human race would be a lot better if we learnt to be happy in the skin we're in:

...give me the stength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference between the two

[Antony Cox]

Aside from being brought up to show respect to people and to know what's right and wrong, my own thoughts on this are that you should treat others as you would like tio be treated yourself. It's very easy to say that, of course, and I wouldn't be able to say hand-on-heart that I do it all the time, but that's generally my philosophy in life. Unfortunately you don't always get that reciprocity when dealing with other people, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to see the best in others and hoping that they treat me as fairly.

Unless someone had done something truly horrifc to me or to someone I cared for, I would find it very difficult not to help someone who was in distress, and could never, ever see myself as one of those who encouraged this chap tp jump or took pleasure in taking photos of him.

[Si Hunt]

One of the things that fascinates me is my theory that a lot of the disharmony in life is because we all have slightly different ways of seeing things. A lot of the time there's neither right nor wrong - it's just two different slants on the world. Did Hitler battle guilt at night thinking "How can I live with himself?" or did he genuinely believe that what he was doing was right? You couldn't be sure. So the "treat others as..." philosophy becomes a bit more interesting. It's worthy - don't hit someone, you wouldn't want to be hit... but did you hurt someones feelings without knowing it? Because you THOUGHT you were being fair? Sometimes it's hard to tell.

Si.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

I read a really powerful poem by a friend called Tia who has had some issues thanks to a botched diagnosis which has put her on the wrong medication. Thanks to that she's had real suicidal feelings (the medication for the wrong classification of bipolar actually makes her worse).

But in it, it's a simple tale of her drowning, and calling out to the shore "help me". There are people there, and they're all coming up with elaborate plans, to pray for her, to drain the ocean, to call for the coastguard. But all she needs is someone to reach out a hand and pull her out, which no-one will do

Compassion shouldn't be something which should be thought out. It should be instinctual for our fellow human beings. The tale of the Good Samaritan whether you're Christian or not is a telling tale. The man is robbed and left for dead, the first two who pass by are all full of their own thoughts and worries, and kind of see the man in distress and say to themselves things like "that's terrible - as soon as I get to temple I'll pray for him" or "I'm going to launch a safety awareness campaign". It actually takes the Samaritan to take any positive action.

[Jason Thompson]

Looking beyond the advantages of living as a social animal, there is no evolutionary or genetic advantage to caring for anyone outside your own genetic bloodline

Why would you look beyond the advantages of social living, especially since it is so clearly demonstrated in many animals and has a disinct evolutionary benefit?

Not something that atheistic Darwinian spokespeople seem keen to emphasise !

On the contrary: the benefits of altruism and social living are under constant study in terms of their place in natrual selection and evolution of species and their interactions. Just because there isn't a simple answer doesn't mean there isn't any answer.

Logic would seem to dictate that if existence is pointless, then the maxims of looking after yourself first, or at least 'do no harm' make more sense than any kind of altruism.

Except, of course, we live in a society in which we all depend on others, regardless of how many people like to maintain the pretence of independence.

[Antony Cox]

So the "treat others as..." philosophy becomes a bit more interesting. It's worthy - don't hit someone, you wouldn't want to be hit... but did you hurt someones feelings without knowing it? Because you THOUGHT you were being fair? Sometimes it's hard to tell.

Si.

Oh, absolutely. It's all relative to what we think is right as individuals. In a way it's quite immodest as we presuppose that we're right and eveything in the world should be relative to that, but of course that's not the case.

However, I would see myself as generally 'normal' (whatever the hell that is...) and kind of hope everyone else would operate on the same general level.

But then, we all do that, don't we?

[Jon Masters]

Why would you look beyond the advantages of social living, especially since it is so clearly demonstrated in many animals and has a disinct evolutionary benefit?

Except that socially living animals are usually genetic relations, and so their social organisation is a method of looking after their own, as opposed to Si's question which was looking after other people who are not related to us but share our space. Social animals will not usually put up with another social group of the same species but different bloodline sharing their territory - in fact they will usually go out of their way to destroy or drive off such competition.

[Dino]

I thought of this thread when I watched Crimewatch before. I live a few miles away from Moreton where a 13 year old was abducted from a bus stop in broad daylight and sexually assaulted by a 40+ sick, sick bastard... and nobody at the bus stop thought to do anything when he forced himself on her? Moreton... what the hell? And I bet you those people at the bus stop donate (or try to get out of donating) to TV charities so they "Can do their bit"?
Mind you, it's easy to say you'd do something after it happens isn't it?

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Mind you, it's easy to say you'd do something after it happens isn't it?

I know what you did, what you didn't do and what you couldn't do would stay with some people for the rest of their lives. I'd like to think I'm not in a minority, but who knows.