The Pope vs Equality

[WhiteCrowNZ]

You have to remember the Catholic church isn't about Christianity at all, it was just an attempt to continue the Roman empire by hijacking and subverting a religion it had tried to subjugate.

As an institution, the Catholic church has one of the worst track records going, aiding the subjugation of Europe with their support that kings had divine rights. They're responsible for the crusades, and the millenium of issues with Islamic faiths. They were behind brutal witch hunts which killed thousands. They caused all kinds of political unrest over Europe against Protestant countries, having been behind at least 2 planned invasions of the UK. They drove the conquest attitude of Europe regarding the rest of the world, as "the word of God" was exported. Turned a blind eye to Nazi attrocities of the war. And have been covering for paedophiles for years.

So the fact that the Pope doesn't agree with gay rights is really just business as usual really.

[Captain Tancredi]

This subject interests me, having been on both sides of the fence at different times in my life (and a view of Catholicism tinged somewhat by having family members within a few hundred yards of being blown up by the IRA). But two days before going to a funeral probably isn't the best time to be thinking about the (non-) existence of God.

[Carol Baynes]

Science can usually explain how something happens, but it can often struggle with the ‘why’. I’m pro-science, but don’t respect attempts to explain love away as just chemical reactions and reproductive urges, to use one example.

The larger truth is going to be marvellous when we finally recognise it, I firmly believe that. Sadly, caught up in the difficulties of our own lives and the tough challenges therein, we often fail to recognise even our own personal inner beauty.

I’ve no allegiance with any dogmatic institutionalised religion, but I’m not an atheist. It frustrates me that a lot of people think you either have to be part of some dogmatic religion or be an atheist. As if there's no other option!

There’s no imagination in either for me, and respect to both sides but neither is for me at all. Darwin’s “The Origin of the species” sits happily on my shelf with Musiaos’ “The Lion Path” and I feel more enlightened for having no intellectual boundaries. I can make my own mind up without a religion to tell me so.
The sooner the human race takes responsibility for itself, instead of blaming or thanking some distant deity, the better we’ll be. ‘God’ is us- we are part of it all, and individually important. To work against that, and cast ourselves as 'less' than 'God' is counter-productive, but the society we’ve built up around us (the one we probably currently deserve) doesn’t generally recognise the meta-physical, and has dulled us into Play station playing, Facebook obsessed morons. Most kids under the age of 20 don’t seem to read books. It’s shocking. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with Playstations or Facebook, but everything in moderation!

I’ve experienced too much wonderful oddity in just this one lifetime to always be satisfied by what science can offer. I’m no fool, I just keep an open mind, and believe in the divine is us all. “There’s more to us than surgeon’s can remove”, to quote an old song.

The more I read and the more people I meet the more I believe most big religions were (and are) there to control the masses, removing most free thinking and self responsibility from the original teachings. But the mass media do a good job of that as well.
But the more you read the more it gets more weirder (and ocasionaly scarier). Any Lononers on here, could do worse than visit Watkins books- brilliant bookstore for the esoterially minded!

To get back to the thread topic, the current pope obviously has nothing truly loving or relevant to say, and is just being as contradictory and as ludicrous as the Church ever was. Breaking away from dogma and not hanging on his every word, is a lesson most Catholics could learn from, but then they wouldn’t really be Catholics anymore would they.

[Rob McCow]

I may not agree with everything you say, but it's always great to hear from you on these subjects, Carol!

Without straying too far off this particular topic, it seems that the educated atheist masses have a more tolerant standpoint than the upholders of religion, in Europe at least. If god is believed to be love, then this shouldn't be the case.

[Carol Baynes]

Thanks Rob, there's nothing like a good theological debate to lure me out of 'retirement'.

[Larry]

You have to remember the Catholic church isn't about Christianity at all, it was just an attempt to continue the Roman empire by hijacking and subverting a religion it had tried to subjugate.

As an institution, the Catholic church has one of the worst track records going, aiding the subjugation of Europe with their support that kings had divine rights. They're responsible for the crusades, and the millenium of issues with Islamic faiths. They were behind brutal witch hunts which killed thousands. They caused all kinds of political unrest over Europe against Protestant countries, having been behind at least 2 planned invasions of the UK. They drove the conquest attitude of Europe regarding the rest of the world, as "the word of God" was exported. Turned a blind eye to Nazi attrocities of the war. And have been covering for paedophiles for years.

So the fact that the Pope doesn't agree with gay rights is really just business as usual really.

not only that but there is I believe a lot of evidence that the Vatican actively helped wanted Nazi's escape to South America after the war.

[Jason Thompson]

Without straying too far off this particular topic, it seems that the educated atheist masses have a more tolerant standpoint than the upholders of religion, in Europe at least.

I tend to agree. Without any religious dogma to bind us, we atheists and agnostics can simply take what we see around us and learn and accept or not based on more down to Earth concerns. I don't care what any bok written centuries ago says about homosexuality, the gay people I know are some of the nicest people I have ever met, so why on Earth would I condemn them as unnatural or sinful or unclean or whatever? If there is some all-powerful entity responsible for everything, then why would he fill the world with things he supposedly says are un-natural and get the rest of the world to persecute them? For kicks? Certainly no God I have heard about from these religious bigots sounds like anyone I would ever want to worship or devote my life to.

[Jason Thompson]

But going back to the original issue, how would organisations like the Council for Racial Equality feel if they were forced by law to take people on who were white,

By definition they can hardly object to that. Equality means just that, so being white is not a disqualification.

or worse, racist ?

Since that would compromise their ability to work effectively for the organisation, that would solve itself. Equality bills don't mean everyone is automatically entitled to a job regardless of suitability.

[MinaHarker]

I tend to agree. Without any religious dogma to bind us, we atheists and agnostics can simply take what we see around us and learn and accept or not based on more down to Earth concerns. I don't care what any bok written centuries ago says about homosexuality, the gay people I know are some of the nicest people I have ever met, so why on Earth would I condemn them as unnatural or sinful or unclean or whatever? If there is some all-powerful entity responsible for everything, then why would he fill the world with things he supposedly says are un-natural and get the rest of the world to persecute them? For kicks? Certainly no God I have heard about from these religious bigots sounds like anyone I would ever want to worship or devote my life to.

Have to disagree, honey.

There are plenty of people both religious and non who will attack the other side. I've heard plenty of atheists attack religion as inherently evil and a symptom of mental illness. That's just as bad as anything religious people dish out.

There are also wonderful people on both sides of the issue - unfortunately it's the noisy, nasty ones who get the most attention.

[Jason Thompson]

Hmm, a good point. I made the classic mistake of lumping them all in with my views, but of course they don't all think like I do (but if I had that Immortality Gate I could soon fix that.... ). Richard Dawkins is a good example of an atheist who is quite scathing of religion. I quite often find that I agree in principle but his presentation needs some refinement.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

A rather amusing blog entry a friend of mine put up ...

http://crispian-jago.blogspot.com/20...at-in-hat.html

[matthewsch]

Well it's up to the Catholic Church who they want to ordain or not, and to be honest, I'm surprised they weren't targeted for sexism first, especially since all other denominations have women in leadership roles. If they want to reject a gay man then that's up to them. I mean, they already have rules that dictate that the ordained person must be male and dedicated to celibacy and being single. (Which rules out both homosexual AND heterosexual relations anyway.) Seriously, I don't see why there is so much fuss in the media about it. Why don't we deal with the REAL issues in the Catholic Church, including their refusal to allow contraception, even when said contraception prevents disease and death.

[Rob McCow]

Some good points there - I agree that sexuality should be totally irrelevant in selecting a Priest.

Why don't we deal with the REAL issues in the Catholic Church, including their refusal to allow contraception, even when said contraception prevents disease and death.

As far as I am aware, the issue of contraception is a much larger problem for third world countries which is perhaps why it doesn't get reported as much as it should over here.

[Stuart Wallis]

I read a statistic last night - it's been estimated that the world's human population has gone from two billion to six billion between 1807 and 1999, having been an estimated 0.25 billion in 1BC. If the Catholic Church is as worried about over-population as a lot of people, including certain Catholics I could name, are, then birth control is something they should take into consideration. Unfortunately, the current situation makes more Catholics, and the fear of Hell puts more shillings in the collection box of a Sunday. Which brings me back to Kenny Everett's quote about the Catholic church being a very clever business.