Mr and Mrs Sexist

[Rob McCow]

Letters that begin "Dear Sir/Madam" and references to "Mr and Mrs" are both remnants of "sexist thinking", according to psychologists.

The claim is supported by the results of scientific studies, they argue.

Dr Peter Hegarty, who led a team from the University of Surrey, said: "In the 16th century, naming men before women became the acceptable word order to use because of the thinking that men were the worthier sex.

"This grammar has continued with 'Mr and Mrs', 'his and hers' and the names of romantic couples like Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet.

"While the original sexist ideas behind this grammar are no longer accepted, we wanted to investigate whether the sexist habit of male names coming before female names still holds true and the psychological reasons why this might be."

The psychologists first conducted an investigation on the internet using 20 popular British and American boys' and girls' names.

The researchers searched for cross-gender name pairings which placed either the male or female name first, for instance "David and Sarah" or "Sarah and David".

For British name pairs, male-first pairings accounted for 79% of the mentions and female-first 21%. In the case of American names, 70% of mentions were male-first and 30% female-first.

"These results were found to be statistically significant, and support the idea that gender stereotypes still affect the written language," said Dr Hegarty.

The research is published today in the British Journal of Social Psychology.

Dr Hegarty said: "The results of our studies suggest that people tend to put men, or male qualities, before women. As this is a remnant of the sexist grammar of the 16th century, it would seem that psychologically we are still sexist in writing."

Dear The Men of Planet Skaro (and also the kind and gentle womenfolk who we shall remember second after the valiant Men),
Do you think that writing 'Mr and Mrs' at the top of a letter makes you into an enormous sexist bigot?
Is the very marrow of our language sexist?

On a more serious note, do we find that sexism is still a prevalent problem today? Are things getting better or worse - for both sexes? Have you encountered sexism in the workplace or in public?

[Si Hunt]

In what way am I disadvantaging a woman by putting her name second in a pair of alternative address terms at the top of a letter? It's got a vague point, it's just a bit pathetic.

It's just easy shorthand.

Si.

[Lissa]

What about "Ladies and gentlemen" or "Bride and groom"? They're just as much a part of the language as "Mr and Mrs" and they put the woman first.

[Si Hunt]

A lot of it is tradition. But so what? It might technically be historically sexist but it's not hurting anyone is it? Maybe these people should find something more worthwhile to do with their time than try and invent things for people to get offended by.

Si.

[Paul Monk]

I would also question the description of the research as scientific!

Also when talking on ones children is it not more common to mention the eldest first? When I talk about my kids it's Tabby (oldest) and William. When me and my sister were talked about it was Paul (oldest) and Lindsey.

What a stupid study.

[Larry]

I'm just staggered that a University, has wasted time and money on such rubbish - 99.9% of people wouldn't even give a 2nd thought to Mr coming before Mrs it's only fools like Dr Peter Hegarty, who think it's sexist.

[Captain Tancredi]

I can kind of see where he's coming from, but five hundred years after the fact it's a bit late to be worrying about what's become a convention in English usage.

I suspect I'm not alone when I'm talking about couples in that the first name tends to be the friend or relative I know best- thus I had an Auntie Rose and Uncle Phill, Auntie Joan and Uncle Frank, and in both cases the aunties were the biological relatives. Incidentally, I saw somebody letting two or three women onto a train today with the remark "Ladies first"- unfortunately it doesn't quite work that way these days and a phalanx of people (self included) took advantage to follow said ladies and ensure that the soul of politeness was practically the last person on the train.

[Dave Tudor]

Mary and Joseph, Victoria and Albert, Posh and Becks - there are many great couples in history in which the woman has always come first.

[Jason Thompson]

In any paring, one has to be mentioned first. What do they suggest we do? Switch round Mr and Mrs to Mrs and Mr? They should probably just be glad we no longer refer to the wife as Mrs (husband's name)!

Sexism is still prevalent, but the trouble is it goes both ways and no-one seems to mind one half of that. We can't make jokes about women being scatterbrained and make-up obsessed without incurring the wrath of feminism, but we can quite happily make jokes about blokes being lager-swilling couch potatoes who wouldn't know their way round a kitchen with a map, or, in the case of one TV commercial that just won't go away, too simple to clean an oven.

[Stuart Wallis]

I note he doesn't offer any alternate suggestions. Okay, there's "to whom it may concern", but he can't even be bothered to suggest that, unless he's overlooked it... Sloppy thinking.

[Philipnet]

Do I write an email to "Neil and Susan" or "Susan and Neil"?

In my case I usually put the boss first and the underling(s) second.
So today I wrote an email to "Neil and Susan"; tomorrow it may be a different way round.

[Lissa]

I note he doesn't offer any alternate suggestions. Okay, there's "to whom it may concern", but he can't even be bothered to suggest that, unless he's overlooked it... Sloppy thinking.

I've been at meetings about this. The best alternative for automatically generated letters is "Dear Customer" which is lovely.

The thing about letters is that you really don't need a salutation. Address a letter that is for two people to alphabetical first names (can't say Christian names as that would be offensive) and just start the letter. Names, address, reference numbers, policy details, bank account bumf - whatever - and get straight down to business. But far more people would complain about that than complain about "Mr and Mrs" so it isn't worth the development time. Certainly in my experience, more women complain formally about being addressed as "Ms" when they are proudly "Mrs" than complain about "Miss" or "Mrs" when they prefer "Ms".

[duncan]

Why would "Christian names" be offensive? I'm not trying to provoke anything here but I don't understand that statement.

[Lissa]

Some people get offended by the word Christian if they are not Christians. Or claim to be very offended for their own reasons which amounts to the same thing these days. It's all very silly - as silly as BC and AD being replaced by BCE and CE in some recent history books - but that's the modern world for you.

[duncan]

OK fair enough.

Personally, it isn't something I find offensive however it isn't accurate in our multi-cultural society

[SiHart]

We have to use the term First Name at work.

Si xx

[Captain Tancredi]

Why would "Christian names" be offensive? I'm not trying to provoke anything here but I don't understand that statement.

"What's your Christian name?"
"Mohammed."

[duncan]

The term "Christain name" is an accepted term in the Engish language. Like I said, it may not be an accurate term to use but will it really cause offence to ask what someone's christian name is?

[Captain Tancredi]

I don't think it's necessarily a case of it being offensive, just that calling it a "Christian" name is a bit silly when you're talking about people from non-Western ethnic and/or faith groups. I would guess that it originally meant your baptismal name, although there also seems to be an increasing tendency for people to use their middle names if they prefer, or to find another abbreviation of their first name. I think it's partly an Australian thing, because it's quite common there to see slightly unusual spellings of names.

[MinaHarker]

Some people get offended by the word Christian if they are not Christians. Or claim to be very offended for their own reasons which amounts to the same thing these days. It's all very silly - as silly as BC and AD being replaced by BCE and CE in some recent history books - but that's the modern world for you.

I get offended when people assume I am a Christian because I am somewhat religious.

[Dave Tudor]

Many western 'Christian' names are not even of Christian origin anyway - my 'Christian' name is actually Hebrew!

[Stuart Wallis]

And my "first" name started out as a surname.

[Mike Saville]

The term "Christain name" is an accepted term in the Engish language. Like I said, it may not be an accurate term to use but will it really cause offence to ask what someone's christian name is?

Actually, it hasn't really been an accepted term in official and most legal documents for a generation, but you're right, it is still very much in common usage- the indignation (or more commonly confusion) it causes a small minority of people has been greatly magnified by white middle class righteous but misguided busybodies with nowt better to do.

Where it causes many problems is in foreign nationals who are not only not christian, but have different naming conventions. As an example the Cantonese put the surname first, so 'first name' isn't appropriate either. We were taught to use 'family name' and 'given name', but even then it doesn't always fit- if you've changed your name by deed poll that won't work either.

I'd like to think that most of us would use our initiative and discretion in it,but in an ever more automated world, there is little place for either.

M Saville Esq

[MinaHarker]

Actually, it hasn't really been an accepted term in official and most legal documents for a generation, but you're right, it is still very much in common usage- the indignation (or more commonly confusion) it causes a small minority of people has been greatly magnified by white middle class righteous but misguided busybodies with nowt better to do.

M Saville Esq

That's pretty rude. I don't like being asked my "Christian name" because, guess what, I'm not Christian.

I find it offensive because I have met too many Christians who take it on themselves to call my religion "silly", "stupid" and "evil" (yes, really). Why would I want anyone to think I was part of a group like that?

[Mike Saville]

Indeed. But the term has been so watered down in terms of human labelling that christianity and christian name ceased to have anything in common a very long time ago. A bit like christianity and spirituality.