Rate and Discuss: Victory of the Daleks!

[Si Hunt]

No voting before the episode has been on please!

How was it for you?

Si.

[shada pavlova]

It was a jolly good one! The only bad thing, I reckon, was the new Daleks. It would have been a much better effect if they'd had original, silver 'n' blue Daleks coming out of the Progenitor. Otherwise, topping stuff.

[Si Hunt]

I felt slightly underwealmed. It was a bit like a prelude, rather than a story. The concept of the Daleks in wartime was totally wasted, as they were there about five minutes. There was far too much hanging around talking, on the Dalek ship and the end, which seemed to go on forever. What did the Daleks do? They glided around the bunker (probably the best bit; "WOULD YOU LIKE A CUP OF TEA?!") then went up to their ship, then that was it. Ian McNeice was great as Churchill, and Matt Smith was good again (especially "Come on then, sweetheart!" to the Dalek) but I can't think of any particuarly memorable scenes, aside from the emergence of the new look, slightly too chunky, Daleks, or decent lines.

When you think of "Dalek", it had a fairly simple plot, but was bursting with interesting themes, ideas and touches underneath. Occupying the same 45 minutes, this by contrast did little except to unveil some pointlessly redesigned Daleks, have a bit of shooting in Space and a robot. See, different level. And not a particuarly challenging one.

It was okay. But despite being dissapointed that the Dalek/World War II story was only one episode, this felt ready to finish about 15 minutes before the end because not much happened. You expect a Dalek story to be epic, and a Mark Gatiss script to be quite clever and layered - that this was neither, despite being a refreshing burst of fun, couldn't help but be something of a letdown.

7/10.

Si.

[Lord President]

It would have scored an 8 or 9 if it hadn't been for the hunchback Power Ranger Daleks! Not impressed! 6/10

[Dino]

I'll put this speculation in spoilers, may contain one swear but...

Oh ****ing hell the Daleks aren't coming back at the end of the series are they? Change the record!

I only say that as it seemed a bit anti-climatic? Aside from that, some dodgy timing in the plot. (Nazi's ten minutes away and they've had the time to install gravity bubbles in the spitfires? Please tell me I missed that explanation?) Get swept up in the moment and it was a good episode. I suppose the key to enjoying it is to see it as a bit of enjoyable nonsense? It used to be more but... Second week on the trot I've been left feeling "Meh".
Anyway, the Doctor/Dalek face off seemed like an act one to a bigger story and... *sigh* again. I'll give it a 7. This series seems destined to be scoring around that number so far? What the hell's gone wrong?
Perhaps it's just me?

[WibblyWombly]

I quite liked this episode. I gave it a 9/10. Some good acting from Churchill, Matt Smith and Bracewell. The plot was fairly decent and the dogfight was vey cool. Very clever of the Daleks, turning all the lights off. Nice surprise of Bracewell being a robot and a quite accuate portrayal of the war. For once the Doctor didn't destroy them all. The Jammy Dodger and "would you like some tea?" were very funny. Matt acted getting angry at the Dalek brilliantly. Plus the first on-screen deaths this series . Yet another crack in the universe thing. Amy not remembering The Daleks is interesting. If this is the same for every human maybe this'll explain Van Statten not recognising the Daleks in Dalek. Time of Angels looks very cool.

I Would have given it a 10 if it wasn't for the apallingly designed rainbow coloured Daleks. They really do feel like change for the sake of change.

Also in the opening sequence I'm pretty sure they mentioned Biggin Hill, my home town!! XD

[Larry]

I felt slightly underwealmed. It was a bit like a prelude, rather than a story. 7/10.

Si.

agreed,I think the point of this episode was just to set things up for later in this series or next - I enjoyed this episode much more then last weekds, Ian Mcniece was ok as Churchill but not the best I've seen. As for the new design of Daleks I like them a lot.

7/10

[Darren]

The Unquiet Dead was/is one of my favourite stories. Unfortunately, Mark Gatiss followed it up with the awful Idiots Lantern so I was interested to see where Victory would take us. Oh dear. The only worthwhile thing about this episode was Matt, once again giving a wondeful performance. His pain and fury at seeing the Daleks again, his attempt to bluff with a Jammy Dodger were the only highlights of an otherwise lacklustre 45 minutes. Except that it wasn't 45 minutes was it? At least three were wasted flogging the computer game!

We and the Doctor have been here before. He defeats the Daleks and then a year later it's "Oh look a lone dalek/ship survived by falling back in time".
Which would be fine if it was done properly, aka the underrated Daleks in Manhattan. However, how on earth are we to believe that the Daleks had the power to build a human android? The Doctor himself said their ship was pretty beaten up. How did they know Churchill was going to summon the Doctor in the first place?
Oh and the Professor has an idea for some anti-gravity thingy jotted down. So a few minutes later the spifires are in space blasting at the Dalek ship in some Independence Day ripoff. Are spitfires designed to withstand the rigours of space? Would the pilots have the ability to fly in space? Absolute rubbish.

Amy was wasted in this episode with nothing to do or interesting to say. The sub plot with the girls husband/fiance shot down was wholly pointless and hollow. Winston Churchill was completely miscast, looking more like that fat plumber off of Doc Martin.

The end scene with the Oblivion Bomb. What was that about? How can making the professor believe he's human prevent the bomb exploding? And was it necessary for the Doctor to punch him? And letting him escape to find his girlfriend, a false memory implanted by the Daleks??!
To be a little fair on Mark Gatiss, dalek stories should really be two parters, and the direction here was dull and leaden.

And the crack in the wallis starting to irritate me. Bad Wolf was subtle, the Cybermen parralel universe and the fob watch arc's were pretty good, but this is to much in your face.

3 out of 10 - And that's generous!

[Darren]

Oh and the rainbow Daleks are clearly very marketable but their menace and believeability has just plummeted.

[Jason Thompson]

OK but nothing spectacular. The first 15 minutes was great, and the green Daleks looked fantastic. Then we went up to the ship and not a lot happened except another silly conversation between the Daleks and the Doctor. They desperately want him dead and yet they never shoot him? The Jammy Dodger bluff was fine, except that all three Daleks were facing him and could have shot him before he pressed it even if it was a self-destruct button!

Liked Bracewell a lot, and the idea that the Daleks made him too good by half so he could become so self aware that he could override their commands. I have the say the scene where the Doctor let him go at the end made me smile.

The new Daleks: at this stage I really do not like them. They seem like change for no good reason and now, whereas before they looked like armoured tanks made of metal, with their primary colours they look like cheap plastic toys from the era of Dalekmania, where no toy manufacturer in the country seemed to be able to get the shape right no matter how many times they'd been seen on screen or in photographs. The toy impression, incidentally, was not helped by one shot where you could see clear through the holes in the neck section to the wall behind! Now I admit part of my dislike might be attributable to the fact that in 46 years the Daleks have always had the same shape and for some reason now they've decided to modify it, but we have a series apparently beset by budget cuts, so why re-design the Daleks when you already have a bunch of them available? Seems that the money could have been better spent elsewhere. And it does seem likely now that they'll be back in around 9 or 10 episodes' time....

And once again we have some setup for the finale. It does seem strange that the Doctor should assume Amy should remember the Daleks, given how lousy he was at keeping track of time in the first episode, but I guess we can assume Amy told him the date at some point off-screen. To be honest, I'm getting a little tired of season arcs, where we have to have bits added to episodes that would otherwise be straightforward as hints to later events.

And spitfires in space? OK, at least no effort was made to explain it beyond 'alien technology', but it did seme to be awfully quick to go from a 1940s aeroplane to a fully equipped space vehicle. Why not have the Dalek ship hovering in the sky, then we could readily believe a squdron of spitfires attacking it. Even a joint effort between the RAF and the approaching German bombers when they see a huge alien ship in the sky. Potential drama wasted there, I feel.

[Philipnet]

Talking of things off screen, when did Amy change clothes?

Last week she was in a nightie and today she's in street clothes.

[egdcltd]

I haven't seen such brightly coloured Daleks since the 60's films. Although these seem to have put on a bit of weight, perhaps there wasn't room to exercise in the progenitor.

[Lissa]

Talking of things off screen, when did Amy change clothes?

Last week she was in a nightie and today she's in street clothes.

I would guess that there was a gap between episodes, certainly long enough to get dressed. She's going to meet a historical icon - definitely worth pulling on a jumper and most of a skirt.

Speaking of clothes, how come no one in 1940s London even blinked at Amy's outfit? I'm not from 1940s London and I couldn't take my eyes off it.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Nothing really happened, what did happen happened too quickly and didn't really make a lot of sense, the new Daleks look rubbish, Churchill was also very unlike Churchill, and there also seemed very little logic to the fact that he even knows the Doctor and can just phone him up, despite the fact that the Doctor can't realistically ever help him in any way whatsoever without changing history. Having said all that, I still gave it a 6 because it didn't contain any actual annoying nonsense that 90% of the RTD episodes did so I'm still preferring this series so far. Oh, the "ooooh ooh oooooh" music was as annoying as ever, hopefully Murray Gold will just die soon seeing as nobody seems to want to get rid of him. But, you know, it was alright.

[Andrew Curnow]

Si has pretty much summed up my feelings on the episode - a little bit underwhelmed, and maybe a sense of anticlimax after the hype and anticipation. The new Daleks look too boxy, and ironically they look far more obviously 'an actor inside a costume' than ever before - not, one assumes, the look they were going for.

But I'm determined not to moan so much this year, and I can name half a dozen episodes of new Who which I didn't like first time round but now have really warmed to (The Unquiet Dead amongst them) so maybe I'm not good with first impressions!!

On the plus side, Smith was superb again, and his anger is much more convincing than Tennant's was in his first year. The expression of weary dismay on first seeing the Dalek was superb too. I also liked the fact that the subplot of the War Room lady losing her pilot boyfriend (husband?) was not made a big thing of - because I guess, in reality, that's probably what it was like at the time. It was nicely underdone, I thought.


One random thought that occurred to me midway through - they should have cast Tom as Churchill. He's got the sort of build now, I'm sure he could have a go at the voice, and he certainly would give the part a certain presence!

[Captain Tancredi]

Reasonably good, I thought, but the problem was that it had a job to do in terms of reintroducing the Daleks and that didn't leave time for much else, like trying to create atmosphere. Also thought Amy was rather better this episode- for the first two episodes (on the strength of Confidential and so on) it felt as if there was stuff Karen Gillan was suppressing that she could actually have been using in her performance- although as eye candy for some reason she leaves me cold.

As regards the new Daleks, I'll reserve judgement- they're a new Dalek paradigm, remember, which means a new social structure and modus operandi, so perhaps the colour coding and more rigid roles will have a pay-off somewhere down the line. But it needed to make a break with the previous five years of Dalek continuity if only for sanity's sake.

[Lissa]

I'm not sure the whole new Dalek order came across terribly clearly. There was some ring modulated shouting about scientists and so on but mainly it was just differently coloured Daleks looking like they've had a Smarties makeover. It was one of many things in the story that needed a bit more explanation. It wasn't bad per se but it felt under-developed. Like the phone call from Churchill - why did he call, what did he say and why did they include it in the first place?

I wonder how many of the parents watching think that Daleks used to be multicoloured because of the Cushing films?

[Alex]

After two superb episodes, I felt really let down by this one. I think it's because it promised so much, and was packed full of great ideas, but there was too much very average dialogue and very little excitement. Maybe it's due to the budget cuts, but whilst the spitfires in space looked amazing, it was all over far too quickly, and then we were back to more drawn out and not particularly interesting scenes on Earth.

The supposed sense of dread and menace didn't work for me either - we always knew that the Dalek's would survive one way or another, whilst Churchill was never going to be killed off, and there were no other supporting characters particularly fleshed out enough to be worth caring about, which is a bit of a shame. There was plenty of time to do this too, considering how everything was pretty much resolved Daleks wise at 35 minutes in, and the last six minutes or so were pretty redundant stuff.

I thought Matt Smith was a bit flat in places too. Tennant (and Ecclestone) really conveyed their utter hatred (and horror of) the daleks, whereas he seemed a tad unconvincing. Don't get me wrong, I still think he's a great Doctor, but in a few parts it didn't feel quite right tonight.

Still, it was in no ways a terrible episode. Just a very very average one which should have been so much better. 6/10.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Oh and the rainbow Daleks are clearly very marketable

Yes it was a bit like looking at a new Dapol line.

but their menace and believeability has just plummeted.

I have to say I absolutely disagree. I love the new design.

They're much bigger and look visually more intimidating which I thought was fab.

Will write more when I've chance to sit down - but yes I enjoyed this episode mostest so far!

[matthewsch]

How can making the professor believe he's human prevent the bomb exploding? And was it necessary for the Doctor to punch him? And letting him escape to find his girlfriend, a false memory implanted by the Daleks??!

Given that he was a sentient bomb, there must have been some way that he could assist in averting his own destruction, and the Doctor realised that this might be possible.

It is also possible that the professor is a machine recreation of someone that has died/the Daleks have killed, and they have planted the dead man's memories in his brain.

[matthewsch]

Speaking of clothes, how come no one in 1940s London even blinked at Amy's outfit? I'm not from 1940s London and I couldn't take my eyes off it.

People sometimes just don't seem to notice these things. Martha went swanning around Shakespearean London in jeans and a jacket, and nobody batted an eyelid. Then again, Nine did tell Rose in The Unquiet Dead that if she went outside, she would start a riot, and there was the 'naked child' thing in Tooth and Claw.

[matthewsch]

As regards the new Daleks, I'll reserve judgement- they're a new Dalek paradigm, remember, which means a new social structure and modus operandi, so perhaps the colour coding and more rigid roles will have a pay-off somewhere down the line. But it needed to make a break with the previous five years of Dalek continuity if only for sanity's sake.

Given the irritatingly repetitive nature of Dalek episodes in the RTD era, I think I would scream if I saw another episode prominently featuring RTD style Daleks. But, the hunchback style sucks. Colours are cool though.

[matthewsch]

Okay, now that I've replied to a number of posts, I'm going to write my own response!

9/10. There's something about this new series which is making me love it more than any RTD series, good as they were. The only annoying thing is the crack in the wall - I'm beginning to think that having a crack in the wall at the end of the episode is going to become a cliche.

I thought the new Dalek style was awesome (except for the fact that they look like hunchbacks). It's refreshing to have something new and not RTD-like, and the white one looks a lot like one of the old series styles so it's not completely new-fangled. It seems that Gatiss has been inspired by ALW's Over the Rainbow though!

Everyone seems to think that the Daleks will be back for the finale. I don't think that's necessarily definitely true, because the sequel is quite pointedly going to be an Adventure Game (although they could easily come a third time).

The one thing that annoyed me was the pace. It was too quick at the start (I would have liked to see more servant-Dalek scenes), and too slow and dragged out when the Doctor was onboard the spaceship. Loved the biscuit though! As soon as he pulled it out and said 'this is the TARDIS self-destruct button' I knew that he would start eating it once the Daleks figured out he was bluffing!

Agreed with the comments about the spitfires, but it was great to see the companion thinking for herself and making some contribution (or organizing some).

On a side note, how come there were only two Daleks serving the British? I got the impression that there were more. There should have been. Also, where did these Daleks come from? Are they from the end of Parting of the Ways? Because they were not pure-bred.

[Wayne]

Style over substance.
This story made no sense whatsover. At all.
And yet in spite of that, Smith & Gillan are by far and away the best Tardis team since the the 1970s.
I sincerely hope that before the season is out, that they will get a story befitting their talents, because so far, Moffat is making RTD, for all his faults, look like the king of writers. This was utter doggerel.
And since when did Winston Churchill look like Mr Grainger from Are You Being Served?
Dreadful waste of a story. I've really liked Gattis' previous stories, but this was really, really rubbish.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

The Re-Genesis of the Daleks ...

I did enjoy that, best episode by far this season.

I thought the setting was really interesting - it's a shame it wasn't hammered out into a two-parter.

Ian McNeice did a terrific turn as Churchill - he's previously played the part before (as was true for Simon Callow's Dickins) and he seemed very comfortable in the role. It's interesting to note for Churchill at the point portrayed, the Nazi's are not far off attacking Russia. Which means when Churchill did a pact with Stalin, he did indeed make a deal with the devil. So a lot of the characterisation, the desperation, really rang true.

Likewise BBC stalwart Bill Patterson was well used. Although there does seem a bit of a Scottish agenda going on at the moment.

The story was interesting in what it sets up. Previously in the New Series, we've had the Daleks return, only for them all to pretty much be wiped out. It's interesting for them to be allowed to return properly. I did feel the scene where the new Daleks destroyed the old ones was a bit like a turn to the camera "that's the end of the RTD legacy Daleks, okay!".

I loved RTD's Daleks. And loved the army green Daleks - I loved the little touch of them having their ear lights covered to keep them dark. However I really like the new design of Daleks as well. They're much more physically imposing - in fact I notice there's a lot of camera shots of them looking down. Their bigger size makes them much more menacing.

And Bracewell's story was an interesting one as well - perhaps deserved to be more central. I thought he was going to be another Power of the Daleks sap talked into something by the Daleks. He was an artificial construct trying to deal with the fact he'd been made too well by the Daleks. Was there a plot point when Amy answered his musing on how confused he was as most of his memories of the past were in his head, and were a lie - was it just her being sympathetic, or something more? But he was a artificial, constructed by Daleks, but able to be more than just a tool of hatred, he found an identity and understanding of life far beyond the comprehension of his creators.

This felt more like Rise of the Cybermen in reintroducing a new spin on an old enemy than say Dalek.

Some loose ends - surely Bracewell's presence is going to alter history - I've heard some speculation it will, and perhaps this is a parellel Universe (someone dubbed it Pete's world).

And Amy not recognising the Daleks - although of course the Daleks have an irrational attraction to only invading the Earth near easily recognised landmarks in big cities, rather than villages. Perhaps it's something to do with being able to see these places from space.