Rate and Discuss: Flesh and Stone

[Martin Penny]

Anyone else notice that Moffat is essentially erasing whatever he thought was crap from RTD's series? I mean, I remember it wasn't but a few weeks ago when I brought up the whole "Cyber-King" issue with my brother to which he said, "It was Christmas Eve in Victorian London, everyone was probably drunk so they just kinda forgot about it" And I said, "That's a sh*t excuse!"

The Doctor actually commented on this at the end of the Christmas story, saying it was a 'mystery for another day'. Considering Moffat and RTD kept in touch throughout the writing of the specials, I'd imagine that was a deliberate thing, rather than Moffat showing some sort of contempt for RTD's writing.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Ah, I loved it when you actually started seeing the Angels move- quite impressive and creepy

See part of me thinks it ruined it for me. What was so creepy in Blink was you know that when you're looking at them they become stone. However when you look away, they become "something else". But actually seeing them move kind of ruined how they were set up in Blink for me. Esp as in Blink they talk about them moving so incredibly fast it's terrifying ... but instead what we get in the kind of bog standard slow, ambling stone creatures.

[matthewsch]

I've been away for the weekend so only just got on now to leave my comments. I really enjoyed this episode, gave it a 10/10. Series 5 is fast becoming my favourite series out of the revived series. River Song and Octavian are great (my father said "That man has a really great voice!" and I have to agree with him), Amy is great, the Doctor is amazing ("You should never let me talk" - classic!). I loved the bit when the soldiers don't remember each other - chilling, for sure. It was nice to see that they survived in the end, but Octavian's death put a sombre note on things, as did the revelation that she killed 'a good man'. I reckon it's the Doctor, but knowing Moffat, he's probably leading us deliberately in the wrong direction there.

At the end of the episode, when River tells the Doctor when he will see her again, it sounds like Moffat giving the fans a spoiler in a press interview!

As for the bit where the Doctor supposedly appears from a different time to talk to Amy, I think that's all rubbish. Yeah, it looks like he's wearing his coat, and sure, it might be true, but he's certainly not from the past because how would he know where/when to go, why he needed to be there, or what was going on? We see only his face and Amy's, the fact that he is wearing the coat could easily be a production error, we only see glimpses of it on the edge of the screen, and even then I'm not 100% convinced. And, he does find another coat in the future, because he's wearing it in the Next Time trailer, so if it is the Doctor from another time period, it will be the future.

It seems I wasn't the only one who, when seeing the Cybermen reference, thought "Moffat's thought up a brilliant plot device to do away with all the crap that the RTD era dragged into canon (and deal with the mountains of plot holes that RTD left behind)!". What's the best way to explain why nobody in the future remembers countless Dalek and Cyberman invasions and the near destruction of all reality by both the Time Lords and the Daleks? Rewrite time!

I knew there was something wrong with that duck pond! I am really looking forward to finding out what it is. I only hope it's not a rehash of 'the bees are disappearing'.

I disliked the last scene, and am glad the Doctor didn't reciprocate. We had enough snogging in the RTD era (although Donna's snog was hilarious) and it was something I had been looking forward to doing away with. I disagree with earlier comments that the one thing you want to do when the world is ending is have sex. I reckon that Amy came onto the Doctor was because she's a kissogram and it's what she likes to do with strange men! I reckon that she is having doubts about Rory and has developed an obsession with the Doctor over the years that has grown into sexual desire, but I hope I'm wrong. It was bad enough with Rose and Martha.

Seeing the angels move annoyed me a lot. Part of what made them scary was that you never saw what they looked like when they moved. Now, they're just stone when they move, and it ruins the concept of the monster. Also, why were they moving slowly?!

In case anyone hadn't noticed, when Amy opened her eyes to look at the crack, the angel image was no longer in her eyes. It is possible that it vanished along with the rest of the angels, but it is also possible that because, as the Doctor said, it wasn't real, then it was only there if she believed it was (like when he bit her hand) AND if the angels were controlling her through it (they had run away at this stage). This leaves us with the question, when else in the episode would it have actually been safe for Amy to open her eyes?

Anyway, so if the angels were swallowed by the crack, does that mean they never existed? If so, then did the Aplans really die, and did the Byzantium really crash? Oh, the confusion or rewriting time...

I was watching the Eleventh Hour with my father the other day, and he picked up on something I had never noticed before. During the first section of the episode, when the Doctor is with young Amelia, nearly every time we see the clock on the kitchen wall, it has shifted forward large periods of time, half an hour or more, in what should be only one or two minutes. Something is clearly wrong with time here. It makes me wonder if it was only a coincidence that the Doctor was gone for twelve years instead of five minutes, and again, two years instead of a few minutes.

Oh and... David Who?

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Octavian are great (my father said "That man has a really great voice!" and I have to agree with him)

Being from the UK I'm sure he does a lot of voiceover work there. Oh and looking him up he was in Lara Croft - thought he rang a bell. Oh and surprise ... he's Scottish!

He also used to be married to Susannah Harker who is now with ... Paul McGann. Small world it is!

when Amy opened her eyes to look at the crack, the angel image was no longer in her eyes. It is possible that it vanished along with the rest of the angels

The crack scared the Angels away and they started running (but not enough to pop by to kill Octavian). I think it's possible when Amy looked at the crack it scared away the Angel inside her.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Just for the record, the Doctor falls in love and sleeps with Mme de Pompador and Queen Elizabeth. But WON'T shag Amy? The fool!

Does he have some kind of list of 'historical figures I'd like to sleep with' he's working through????

[Anthony Williams]

Just for the record, the Doctor falls in love and sleeps with Mme de Pompador and Queen Elizabeth. But WON'T shag Amy? The fool!

Aha! But that was the Tenth Doctor, who'd shag almost anyone (except Martha, apparently).... I get the feeling that Eleven is slightly less randy

Ant x

[Perry Vale]

Maybe the 11th is saving himself for Jackie Tyler?

[matthewsch]

Maybe the 11th is saving himself for Jackie Tyler?

"When Torchwood comes to write my history, don't tell people I travelled in time and space with her mother."


I really hope that Eleven is the same as Ten in that respect...

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Aha! But that was the Tenth Doctor, who'd shag almost anyone (except Martha, apparently).... I get the feeling that Eleven is slightly less randy

That was an awful first scene with Tennant in the End of Time. I'm surprised we've not had a "yeah went back 2000 years, and slept with this girl called Mary ... wonder what happened to HER".

My biggest regret though about River Song is that Rose never got to meet her - can you imagine the fireworks!

[Si Hunt]

See part of me thinks it ruined it for me. What was so creepy in Blink was you know that when you're looking at them they become stone. However when you look away, they become "something else". But actually seeing them move kind of ruined how they were set up in Blink for me. Esp as in Blink they talk about them moving so incredibly fast it's terrifying ... but instead what we get in the kind of bog standard slow, ambling stone creatures.

That whole scene was a bit confused because the Angels were motionless yet no-one was looking at them. There was an odd line about how "when they realised Amy couldn't see them their instincts will kick in and they will move" and how they were distracted by the Crack. But I can't work out why they wern't running away from it? What was stopping them?

The answer could be that the crack was "preoccupying" them to such a degree that they were confused and their physical metabolism thought Amy was looking at them so turned to stone because of the sheer absurdity of someone standing facing them with their eyes shut (e.g "The Daemons", the irrationality of the event fooled them). But then, normally they are so tuned that a tiny blink will free them, so that doesn't really hold.

What got me more was why we got the slow 'stone scraping along stone' noise was heard when they moved, if they only become stone when not observed.

I AM glad we saw them move though. Like a Steps Reunion, it's something that will only ever dissapoint, yet if it never happened you'd be forever wishing that it did.

Si.

[Rob McCow]

Who says that the Doctor's explanation for the Angel's behaviour was correct? He was under stress and he doesn't seem to know everythign about them anyway.

I loved that we saw them moving, because it was creepy. I'd have loved to have seem the 'plain' face morph into the 'gruesome' face as well. Despite all the dressing up with 'quantum' whatsits, the Weeping Angels are essentially magic, fairy tale creatures.

[Si Hunt]

You know you're in poo when you're reduce to "the Doctor might be mistaken". And I would have loved to have seen the Angels face change too, but I fear there were two different masks so it would have been a push.

Si.

[Perry Vale]

I don't personally understand what all the confusion is about. These are different Angels from the ones in Blink, that was set up in Ep.1. As for the bit in episode 2....

the angels are scared, and running, and right now they're not that interested in you, they'll assume you can see them.

Seems pretty clear to me. When she drops the communicator and starts shouting and making lots of noise, they notice her. So the Doctor appears to have been correct in his reading of the situation.

[Si Hunt]

But they arn't running!

Si.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Seems to me that if you are scared and wanting to run from something BUT are forced to remain rooted to the spot because you think someone is looking at you, then you would be very VERY interested in that someone, and would be very carefully checking if they were looking at you so you could bugger off sharpish at the first opportunity. That is, if you'd forgotten you were meant to be quantum locked, and just started treating it as a bizarre instinct that was really really useless to posess

[Perry Vale]

But they arn't running!

Si.

Because they think Amy can see them!

The Angels behaviour is easy to explain, if you want to, and is because of the crack. As the soldiers comment, "it makes you feel weird, and sick"....

[Si Hunt]

Seems to me that if you are scared and wanting to run from something BUT are forced to remain rooted to the spot because you think someone is looking at you, then you would be very VERY interested in that someone, and would be very carefully checking if they were looking at you

But they arn't sentient when frozen - the Doctor said they literally "don't exist". So how they can either be interested in Amy or, indeed, "think" that she is watching them is a mystery. It seems its a natural defence mechanism that is fooled until someone trips over.

Si.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Maybe we ought to accept defeat and accept that they don't really make sense

[Rob McCow]

I'm quite happy to accept defeat and say that it was a really cool bit anyway.

[Si Hunt]

It WAS really cool. My Inner Lawrence Miles still howls though.

Si.

[Jon Masters]

It WAS really cool. My Inner Lawrence Miles still howls though.

Si.

Then, like me, you should set it free. FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!

[Jason Thompson]

EVen in Blink the Angels clearly did 'exist' when frozen, as they were able to make the lights flicker. They don't make any sense at all, but are still damn scary.

[Si Hunt]

Good point!

Si.

[MinaHarker]

See part of me thinks it ruined it for me. What was so creepy in Blink was you know that when you're looking at them they become stone. However when you look away, they become "something else". But actually seeing them move kind of ruined how they were set up in Blink for me. Esp as in Blink they talk about them moving so incredibly fast it's terrifying ... but instead what we get in the kind of bog standard slow, ambling stone creatures.

Seeing the angels move annoyed me a lot. Part of what made them scary was that you never saw what they looked like when they moved. Now, they're just stone when they move, and it ruins the concept of the monster. Also, why were they moving slowly?!

I totally agree with both the above.

I was watching the Eleventh Hour with my father the other day, and he picked up on something I had never noticed before. During the first section of the episode, when the Doctor is with young Amelia, nearly every time we see the clock on the kitchen wall, it has shifted forward large periods of time, half an hour or more, in what should be only one or two minutes. Something is clearly wrong with time here. It makes me wonder if it was only a coincidence that the Doctor was gone for twelve years instead of five minutes, and again, two years instead of a few minutes.

Oh and... David Who?

Ooooooooooooohhhh! I like that

[Stuart Wallis]

First episode I enjoyed watching since, must be 2008, despite, ahem, glaring errors such as Amy's keeping her eyes open too long. The business with the crack has been much more interesting than with the Angels to be honest; I'd given up on them, all I'll say on them is, I've no opinion on their moving. My one reservation with the crack is the Doctor's muttering "History can be changed..."; is Moffat planning to use this series to completely rewrite the last 5 years so that the whole Time War backstory didn't happen (Mind you, didn't RTD do that by bringing the Daleks and the Time Lords back anyway?). The trees in the spaceship were an excellent way of recycling the resources; and the soldiers disappearing up their own timestreams and Amy having her eyes closed so long that it takes her forever to realise it's happening is creepy.

7/10