Rate and Discuss: The Big Bang

[matthewsch]

The "get out of the pandorica" scenario was entertaining and at face value, clever but makes no sense at all, it involves a time loop of events that just appear from nowhere.

Kind of like Blink? Y'know, the most popular episode of Nu-Who, where the time loop that had no beginning is considered one of DW's cleverest ideas? Why is everyone suddenly rubbishing it now?

[matthewsch]

What I think is rather 'neat' is that by leaving the question of, for example, who caused the TARDIS to explode, it means that next year's finale (I'm assuming it will deal with these questions) will feel like a continuation of this already-epic one.

We might find out before the finale. I wish they wouldn't leave EVERYTHING to the finale.

[matthewsch]

Why didn't the Dr regenerate when he got zapped by the Dalek?

The Dalek was weak (mentioned by River Song), so the Doctor managed to hold on long enough to get inside the Pandorica, which kept him alive.

What I'd like to know is, how much of this season actually happened, and how much was erased? Are the Weeping Angels back on that planet? Did the Daleks actually build a new regime in the end, or are the three old ones still skulking around the War Cabinets, waiting for the Doctor to arrive AGAIN? Are the Silurians going to take over 21st century Wales now? Etc.

[Logo Polish]

Presumably the act of bringing the Doctor back means that his stories also happened, although possibly without Amy or Rory in the case of this year's. So I would imagine that most of the season has still happened, either with or without those two companions.

The River Song of Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone has already been through this story, which could suggest that even Amy's involvement is somehow still "there".

[shada pavlova]

I'd still like to know why Amy's house has three stories inside and only two outside!

Spacious attic?

[Logo Polish]

Oh yes, and it would appear that the scene with young Amelia waiting outside and the sound of the TARDIS starting in The Eleventh Hour was simply a dream after all.

[Jason Thompson]

I think what's been bugging me about thsi episode is the number of things that are and aren't or have never happened all at once. The TARDIS is exploding, but River Song is still protected inside it; the entire Universe has never existed, but it still does; all those alien races never existed but the thing they made is still around. For the most part the pace and performances keep your mind off that fact, but even the dialogue at points basically outright states the whole thing is nonsense. I don't think any episode has ever been so utterly nonsensical without any kind of explanation even being offered.

And Doctor Who takes dangerous technology one step beyond Star Trek. On Star Trek every time a ship goes into battle at least one console explodes in a huge shower of sparks and throws someone across the room, and of course if they lose antimatter containment the resultant explosion could take out half a planet, but now the TARDIS is so dangerous that if it explodes the whole Universe is wiped out! And yet the Doctor never properly maintains this incredibly dangerous piece of machinery. That's taking irresponsibility to new heights!

[egdcltd]

I'm hoping there's a bit more to the TARDIS blowing up and destroying the universe. If any TARDIS could put the entire universe at risk when it blows up, given the number that the Time Lords would have had over the years, and how many were probably destroyed during the Time War, we'd probably be out a a million or so universes.

[Darren]

It's interesting that there was no preview at the end of tonights show for the Xmas episode, maybe that would give too much away.

It would also be a miracle as they haven't begun filming yet.

I see people are comparing the time loop thing to Blink, which isn't exactly the same thing. The Doctor already had the information because a future Sally Sparrow was destined to give it to him before he was sent back to the sixties.
But, for the future Doctor to give Rory his screwdriver is lazy writing because Rory would have to have let him out first anyway.

[Larry]

It would also be a miracle as they haven't begun filming yet.

.

very true, but at the end of series 1 to 4 we were told what the title of the christmas special was we didn't even get that this season.I'm also glad that the question of who is manipulating the TARDIS has been left unresolved. I personaly feel that to have any real impact it needs to be some thing from the Doctot's past and when you think of that there are very few who could take controll of the TARDIS. I get the feeling that under Moff, we are going to see more old series foes appearing and I''m now leaning towards the power contolling the TARDIS being the Black Guardian.

Any way watched it again this morning and loved it even more than on first view Matt,was absolutely brilliant turning from comedy to emotion in the blinking of an eye. And I agree with Mr Mccow, keep the fez it went so well with the tweed jacket and bow tie.

[Rob McCow]

Oh, and the Moon was wrong too.

Was that just for the time of year?

[The456]

Kind of like Blink? Y'know, the most popular episode of Nu-Who, where the time loop that had no beginning is considered one of DW's cleverest ideas? Why is everyone suddenly rubbishing it now?

It's "like" blink but isn't actually the same as blink which is why it dosn't make sense. In Blink people were transported into the past by touching an angel, an event happened that caused them to travel back in time. What event caused the Dr to get out of the Pandorica ? He just appeared in a fez, a closed loop of events that just happened, no event, unlike blink.

[matthewsch]

If the Pandorica is the most secure box in the universe, and is riddled with deadlock seals as well as tons of other mechanisms, then how can the sonic screwdriver open it? That was a bit of cop out, I reckon. It's that, and not the time loop, that bothers me about that sequence. It's lazy use of the sonic. It's never annoyed me before, but now I see myself joining a large club!

[Lissa]

Maybe, because it was a trap for the Doctor, it was created so that only the Doctor and Amy could open it. It needed a mechanism for springing the trap even if the Super Friends weren't there to drag him into it.

[Jason Thompson]

Was that just for the time of year?

No. The crescent phase seen only appears in the early hours of the morning shortly before sunrise. It couldn't have been that high in the sky and still be in pitch black night. It also appeared to have the surface features of the wrong side.

[matthewsch]

Did anyone else notice that the foyer of the museum was the same shooting location as the foyer of the art gallery in 'The Mona Lisa's Revenge'? In fact, I think the art gallery in 'Vincent and the Doctor' was shot at the same location as TMLR as well!

[Andrew Curnow]

It's "like" blink but isn't actually the same as blink which is why it dosn't make sense. In Blink people were transported into the past by touching an angel, an event happened that caused them to travel back in time. What event caused the Dr to get out of the Pandorica ? He just appeared in a fez, a closed loop of events that just happened, no event, unlike blink.

That is completely true. However, my take on it is that although it's nonsense, if you're a being accustomed to travel & dealing in time you've probably learnt little shortcuts or 'cheats' enabling you to take advantage of the absurd impossibility of it all. Because once that whole paradox is started it actually makes perfect sense - of course the Doctor was able to give Rory the screwdriver, because he was free to do so after Rory freed him with it. It's just 'kickstarting' it that (to us mere mortals anyway) makes no sense.

Similarly, the end, where the Doctor never existed but is dragged back into existence by memory alone doesn't make logical sense - but when you've travelled in time, and 'interfered', surely by definition your mind contains memories of things that didn't happen, or contains memories of a time when something you later did hadn't previously happened. So with that 'ability' comes the capacity to bring stuff back.

It's probably true to say you either buy into it and go along for the ride, or dismiss it as absurdly bad storytelling, but I'm more than happy to do the former when it's so darned good!!

[P-Bal]

Wasn't it just terrible overall?

So many silly logical flaws; yes it's easy to pick anything apart, but this didn't really even manage to make sense on its own terms.

At the end of last week's episode, the cliffhanger asked us to believe that the masses of monsters were happier to imprison The Doctor for all eternity to stop him piloting the TARDIS. Would it not be easier to shoot him dead? They couldn't all have missed at that range could they?

Then we come onto this week's episode, and the general principal seems to be that the Nestenes worked out that Amy Pond would one day become The Doctor's companion, then raided her memory for incidents to implant clues to lead The Doctor back to Stonehenge so they could trap him in the Pandorica? A box which last week defied any attempt to open it, but this week could be opening by a sonic screwdriver or a five year old girl.

And what happened to the notion of not being able to go back and meet yourself? Let's have the two Amy's running around the museum hand in hand, it makes sense! There's only so much timey-wimey you can use before it stops being clever and just becomes plain silly.

Perhaps the silliest flaw was the appearance of River Song at the end. If River remembered The Doctor, had the book of their adventures together, and had miraculously arrived back at the same time in history as Amy (using a device she would not have owned if she wasn't looking for The Doctor, and as he was erased from history she clearly wouldn't), why did she need Amy to declare her memory of him at her wedding? Could River have done it a whole lot more easily?

It's a real shame as I wanted this series to be good, and it hasn't even managed to be average.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

LOL funny guy, regeneration takes place BEFORE death, that's the point, Tennant got zapped by dalek and did a semi regen last series, I don't see why that wouldn't happen in this instance.

Okay because he wasn't dying then, or wasn't dying quite enough at that moment. The fact that he was still alive and doing things about 20 minutes later should be enough of an answer as to why he didn't regenerate though. Bloody hell look how long Tennant took to get round to it.

[Larry]

Perhaps the silliest flaw was the appearance of River Song at the end. If River remembered The Doctor, had the book of their adventures together, and had miraculously arrived back at the same time in history as Amy (using a device she would not have owned if she wasn't looking for The Doctor, and as he was erased from history she clearly wouldn't), why did she need Amy to declare her memory of him at her wedding? Could River have done it a whole lot more easily?

.

simple becuase it was Amy, whom the Doctor, had told to remember him and it was obvious that Amy was going to need some thing to make her remember The Doctor, and for me her seeing River, was the logical choice. Your also for getting that we still don't know just who exactly River, is when we do you may get your questions answered.

[P-Bal]

But surely you're missing the point here. It doesn't matter if River Song is the Meddling Monk in drag, she gives Amy the diary as a prompt to make her remember The Doctor... why prompt Amy if she can remember herself? Similarly, if she doesn't want to remember The Doctor, why prompt Amy at all? It's nonsense. As is the simple fact that if The Doctor had been erased from time, why would the book still exist and why would River Song be there?

It's not really good enough to go for the Acorn Antiques "pick it up in a later storyline" philosophy.

[Larry]

But surely you're missing the point here. It doesn't matter if River Song is the Meddling Monk in drag, she gives Amy the diary as a prompt to make her remember The Doctor... why prompt Amy if she can remember herself? Similarly, if she doesn't want to remember The Doctor, why prompt Amy at all? It's nonsense. As is the simple fact that if The Doctor had been erased from time, why would the book still exist and why would River Song be there?

It's not really good enough to go for the Acorn Antiques "pick it up in a later storyline" philosophy.

but that's just it - Amy, couldn't remember the Doctor, by her self she did have a nagging feeling that there was some thiung she should be remembering but it needed the diary to.be if you like the key to unlock her memories.

[Si Hunt]

I've been in a state of temporal flux all day. You see, we rushed to watch this episode last night when we were tired and drunk for fear of Spoilers. It would have worked if it had been an action-a-thon but sadly it's exactly the sort of episode that you have to wind back if you miss a bit SOBRE, so basically it might as well have been dubbed into Chinese. Consequently I've spent today having both seen and not seen the episode; I had in my head flashes of bits of it, but without a clue as to what happened - that's why I've waited to watch it again before commenting.

And now I have. Well. It's a work of sheer demented genius isn't it? It's VERY Steven Moffatt; things happening in the wrong order, cause and effect muddled together; time literally like "crazy paving" and all very, very clever.

The first half somehow worked despite two flaws. The first was that the Doctor appears able to change history by suddenly appearing and changing it, and then arranging to change it later. Quite clever, but at the same time utterly non-sustainable storywise. Surely this renders every subsequent cliffhanger redundant? Because the Doctor just needs to pop out of time, fix it, then when he's free pop back in time and fix it. It made for a fun episode, but it's just... well, it's cheating isn't it? The second flaw was the fact that he had the Vortex Manipulator, enabling him to time travel in the wink of an eye. So it kind of made this adventure easy, in a way, as he could go anywhere and do anything. And people say the sonic is a quick fix?

And so the first half of this episode went on like that. Madly, things happening out of order, problems being fixed by solutions devised when they'd been solved. And it was hugely enjoyable! That's the quandry. Was this a good thing or not? It made for a (half) episode that was insanely clever and fun, and yet arguably we can never have another like it because it renders all drama in the program pointless. It's like a hugely fun episode where the Doctor fixes things with Magic Wishes; he can do anything, go anywhere. It sort of breaks all the rules.

The latter half of the episode was different still, and I'm really still not sure I understand it. From the crazy business of launching the Pandorica into the burning TARDIS and everything beforehand, it was wonderfully clever and manic. But then... what happened?

Well, we got the massive reset. We literally saw the season unfold. So all the business with Rory being an Auton was just "undone" in a stroke, rather than solved. Amy being dead had also been solved somewhat dubiously - it was a bit lucky that despite being shot at point blank range and declared dead for several minutes, we were simply told she "wasn't quite dead" so she could be restored - but what happened to the Doctor? I didn't get why he was present as his life was being "unwound". He then stepped into a crack, why? And, we could let this go when Rory was remembered because then it was just remembering, not recreating, but how could things be recreated just by remembering them?

It was a fun and insane episode, but there was perhaps a little too much outlandish logic involved; like the Earth being saved because it was "at the eye of the explosion", which for some reason meant it was immune for 2000 years, and seemed to have gone on regardless of no other planets being around; and the burning TARDIS having exactly the same properties as what would-have-been our sun was a bit lucky, and the whole curious business of the entire Universe being able to be "extrapolated" (exactly as it was?) from a few particles of it inside the Pandorica. At this point one has to ponder that this magic box, which can recreate the entire Universe, shoot up through the roof into a burning time machine, and bring someone back to life, was created by a few monsters to lock the Doctor up in. Someone REALLY overdid the extra functions at the design stage didn't they?

Yet the fact it was brain-spinning and clever and thought-provoking and epic made it thoroughly enjoyable to watch. Does this make up for the fact that, storytelling wise, it cheated every rule in the book?

You know, I really can't decide.

Si.

[Larry]

Yet the fact it was brain-spinning and clever and thought-provoking and epic made it thoroughly enjoyable to watch. Does this make up for the fact that, storytelling wise, it cheated every rule in the book?

You know, I really can't decide.

Si.

well I see it as long as you find an episode of Doctor Who hugely fun, though-provoking and thoroughly enjoyable who cares if they bend the odd rule.

[FlyingBeastie]

5/10

Better than last week's, but only cos it had more moments.

I dunno whether Moffat ran out of time, or is trying some sort of Fenric arc across the seasons, but it's not working for me. The fact the "big bad" for this season was an event didn't impress me and just left me feeling gipped. Heroes I think executed this premise best in season one's finale cos you weren't quite sure how the explosion came to be. Here, well, let's face it- no answers. Why was the TARDIS redirecting calls? Did River hear that voice in the TARDIS (I'm sure she did, she reacted to it, so why didn't she bring it up?) They never bring up the reason why Amy's brain is so special (one speculation could be that since she's lived next to the crack for so long, perhaps that's why her brain works the way it does- but again, it's not explained, it's just a speculation)

The more I see Arthur Darvill, the more I prefer him as the companion. He's pretty much come out on top as being more interesting than Karen Gillan (he can carry serious scenes whereas Gillan just falls flat- she does humor well, but drama? Not so much) Amy started off the series very feisty and interesting as a character. As the episodes have gone by she has mellowed substaintially and went from being like a Donna (at Donna's best) to a Rose/Martha (at their worst)

Oh, and it turns out Pip's question was answered after all! whereas, it seems Rory's tag was just a massive prop blunder and I was wrong about the dream (the shape though, I was right, it was the Doctor running through Amy's house)

Overall, better than last week's, but this has been the most disappointing series thus far. I expected more from Moffat. In the end, I ended up not caring all that much for Amy (or even her parents!) a complete 180 for what I felt with the Tylers. There were a lot of great scenes (The Doctor flying the Pandorica into the exploding TARDIS, River had her moments as well, THE FEZ- WHICH I LOVE BY THE WAY) but that can't save the episode from being utterly absurd in its logic.


Oh, and look, it's a reboot finale. Well, whataya know. . .

It's a real shame as I wanted this series to be good, and it hasn't even managed to be average.

Well said, brudda.