Rate and Discuss: The Big Bang

[Andrew Curnow]

i'm not going to enter into this debate, because it's all probably true that there's a lot of inconsistency, etc. But despite all that I've really enjoyed this series. I'm actually reminded of something Si Hart once posted about The Leisure Hive (to my shame, it may have been in response to me being very mean about it) when he said, sometimes you can't explain why you love something, you just do. And that's how I feel about (most of) this series, and I'm happy to leave it like that.

How great would it be to have 13 un-connected adventures in series 6.

But I would just add, I agree with that. And particularly after this series has been so arc-heavy - not in a bad way, but in the sense that it's actually been more explicitly linked than ever before. Obviously I'm expecting a tie up story next year of (at least) who's been controlling the TARDIS and what this silence business is about, but it doesn't need to be a series-wide story.

I'm reminded of Buffy, which I never followed that avidly but did sort of keep up with when Zel watched it. From memory, the last series' very first episode features that year's big bad appearing in the guise of each of the previous seasons' main enemies - a very continuity-heavy scene, and one which kind of established The Series Arc from the opening episode. That whole last year seemed mainly slave to the arc, and I did find it very weary viewing. So I would definitely like to see less links next year - there are other ways of making a big, strong last story other than trailing it for he preceding 11 episodes!!!

[Awesome Wells]

I'd like it - if it were possible, but it probably isn't - if the first eleven episodes APPEARED to be entirely unconnected, but the season finale reveals the hidden connections that literally nobody saw.

[Paul Monk]

I can't see it getting any more linked that it has done this year because otherwise you end up with seasons 3 and 4 of Babylon 5, which although I love, does tend to alienate the casual viewer which Moffatt is sensible enough to avoid.

[FlyingBeastie]

I’m glad people have enjoyed this series, but as I said elsewhere I felt it was a sequence of ‘cool’ images and scenarios rather than a set of strong stories (as exemplified by ‘Romans at Stonehenge’ and ‘all the Doctor’s enemies that we have costumes for team up’ and ‘Rory kills Amy’ ).

Couldn't agree with you more.

In terms of the crack swallowing people from time, it is a touchy and fuzzy concept cos' Moffat is constantly changing what it does just as he did with the Angels. In Blink, they were a force to be reckoned with (not to mention creepy as lonely hunters) but brought back in legion form and shown that they don't move at lightening fast speeds just killed them in terms of lethality and cool (by the way, is the jury still out on how that one Angel they're trying to capture had been in a collection for hundreds of years didn't deteriorate? Or, moreover and more importantly, their exact plan on how they were going to recapture the Angel???)

I just think RTD was a better showrunner because at least there was continuity between episodes, no matter how crap or cheesy they may have been. Masters brought up the discontinuity with the crack, but there's also discontinuity in the character of Amy (as I've mentioned before)

Not only that, but Masters brought up the story Turn Left, where, the absence of The Doctor is a pivotal loss- well, let's be honest here, what exactly did Eleven do in this series that would make his loss pivotal?

If we revisit each episode in this series, you'll see that in many of them the Doctor plays a passive role in the scheme of things.

Granted, Eleventh Hour, he had a very active role in terms of ridding the world of Prisoner Zero (but, let's face it, if The Doctor hadn't shown up what real danger was Amy or anyone else in?)

Beast Below, everything with the Queen and Starship U.K. would've gone on without a hitch if the Doctor wasn't there. Granted, when he found out, his solution was lobatamizing the beast and it was Amy who sussed out the truth as to why the Star Whale helped them in the first place (also, I don't care how old and kind you are, but if you spent centuries getting your brain fried and tortured, wouldn't you high tail the hell outta there when given the chance???)

Victory of the Daleks, again, it was a trap for The Doctor. If he hadn't showed, the Daleks would've kept their cover till he came around (his appearance actually spawned the new Dalek race) not only that, but he didn't help much when the scientist was about to blow his top- it was, you guessed it, Amy to the rescue once again.

Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, The Doctor and River Song are supposed to be equally matched, and equally brilliant, yeah? Then why is it that even though they keep bringing up the fact the race has two heads and never once notice the statues only have one? Moffat has really failed in terms of writing a smart Doctor. RTD wrote in his A Writer's Tale that it's pretty tough writing Doctor Who since you're dealing with writing someone who's always one step ahead of you. Well, Moffat has written the Doctor backwards this time. In Beast Below and this story, the Doctor is pretty thick. Not only that, but in the end, his "brilliant" plan wasn't even his- the gravity was always going to fail, he and the ladies just needed to be in the right place at the right time- once again, a passive Doctor. Not to mention, River is the one who saved Amy, not him.

Vampires in Venice, I'll give him credit, he did destroy the weather machine. But it was the Venecian dad who killed the ladyfishees. (by the way, why didn't the Queen just flee and move near a bigger body of water??? I guess leaving the Doctor with guilt felt better)

Amy's Choice Wasting an hour of everyone's time- there were no stakes, no one was in danger, and once again, the Doctor was thick and did nothing till Amy killed herself and him first.

The Silurian Two-Parter That Should've Been a One Parter You tell me- what did the Doctor accomplish here exactly? What did the episode accomplish aside from killing Rory? If the drill kept going, the Silurians would've been killed (wow, a big scary race terrified of a drill) at the end of the episode, The Doctor didn't change the state of things.

Vincent and the Doctor Vincent kills an invisible monster no one else can see.

The Lodger Exempt from scrutiny cos the Doctor actually did something here and needed to be there.

Pandori::yawn::ca Opens/The Big Bore The Doctor prattles on about how curious he is of what's inside the Pandorica, he thinks he calls off all the baddies, but it turns out they all (illogically) bandied together to save the universe (what???) from the Doctor and throw him in the prison. Meanwhile, in part two, he actually did things, but let's face it, according to the end of the episode none of that ever happened.

Or did it? Who can say. Moffat is getting all too Trekkie with Who if you ask me.


To answer Hanson, it was him because he materialized in the house and said "Pond's house" and when he goes outside, it's the night she was there waiting for him.

[Jon Masters]

I don't mind being called Jon - I'm not known as The Masters universally

[Logo Polish]

Not only that, but Masters brought up the story Turn Left, where, the absence of The Doctor is a pivotal loss- well, let's be honest here, what exactly did Eleven do in this series that would make his loss pivotal?

If we revisit each episode in this series, you'll see that in many of them the Doctor plays a passive role in the scheme of things.

(snip)

Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, The Doctor and River Song are supposed to be equally matched, and equally brilliant, yeah? Then why is it that even though they keep bringing up the fact the race has two heads and never once notice the statues only have one? Moffat has really failed in terms of writing a smart Doctor. RTD wrote in his A Writer's Tale that it's pretty tough writing Doctor Who since you're dealing with writing someone who's always one step ahead of you. Well, Moffat has written the Doctor backwards this time. In Beast Below and this story, the Doctor is pretty thick. Not only that, but in the end, his "brilliant" plan wasn't even his- the gravity was always going to fail, he and the ladies just needed to be in the right place at the right time- once again, a passive Doctor. Not to mention, River is the one who saved Amy, not him.

Whereas in RTD's first year alone you'd get stories like The Unquiet Dead, where the Doctor is completely taken in by the Gelth's promises and has to rely on Charles Dickens to save the day. Or The Long Game where it's only Cathica who manages to sort everything out after the Doctor and Rose have been captured and restrained. Or Father's Day where Pete Tyler has to sacrifice himself after the Doctor gets himself killed. Or Dalek where the Doctor misjudges the situation and goes off to blast the Dalek before finding that he doesn't need to. Or Rose where it's up to Rose to tip the balance with the antiplastic while the Doctor is still struggling with the Nestenes. Or The Parting of the Ways where the Doctor seems doomed until Rose suddenly turns up again.

[Darren]

I don't mind being called Jon - I'm not known as The Masters universally

Only his students call him Master.

I have to say, regarding all the illogical inconsistancies, that I often only spot them when i read the episode analysis on here.

And those I do spot are usually forgiven if I have been entertained by the episode. This is why, for example, despite the convienient finale, I loved Journey's end and not Last Of The Timelords. Both resolutions were ludicrous but the former was a rollicking good adventure.

I agree with most of the mindbending plotholes discussed in Series 5, but it has generally been great fun.

[FlyingBeastie]

In The Long Game, the Doctor needed to be there otherwise Cathica would've never been pushed to think, and in Rose, he had the antiplastic that was needed to destroy the Nestine.

[Dr Judson]

An excellent finale to a wonderful series. I loved the quick jumps through time. I loved the fez by the way (he should have kept it!) I liked the nice touch where Rory held his hand-gun like a revolver at one point. Contrary to the other series finales, I thought that flying the Pandorica into the TARDIS made perfect sense (in the context of Doctor Who, that is). I loved the Doctor's appearance at the wedding (complete with top hat and giraffe dance). I especially liked the small-scale, non over the top nature of this finale (in contrast to Last of the Time Lords and Journey's End). Overall, a really enjoyable series finale.

[Jason Thompson]

Granted, Eleventh Hour, he had a very active role in terms of ridding the world of Prisoner Zero (but, let's face it, if The Doctor hadn't shown up what real danger was Amy or anyone else in?)

Umm, 'Prisoner Zero will leave the human residence or the human residence will be incinerated'?

[Jason Thompson]

Just to clear something up, the Pandorica did not "defy all attempts to open it" last week; the Doctor stated he could easily open it, he just didn't want to 'til he knew what was inside.

Of course, that opens up an almighty flaw in the villains plan: if the Doctor had said "sod it" and opened it before they'd all arrived, he could have worked out their plan in a jiffy and scarpered.

Si. :mobile

Indeed. If they want him sealed up forever, why make it openable at all?

A further thought: the Doctor plans to use the light from the Pandorica and the few remaining atoms of the Universe in the exploding TARDIS. The Pandorica that is a prison specifically designed so he of all people can't open it from inside. How was he planning to open it and release the contents?

[Andrew Curnow]

I assumed he was expecting it to blow up in the explosion? If he could just open the door, then that would suggest it would remain intact and he could then happily fly it back to Earth - which clearly wasn't the case.

[Jason Thompson]

For a start, Moff deliberately rewrites the logic from Blink into how the Angels work for series 5 – adding new powers is OK, but completely ignoring rules you established before isn’t. Here they're feeding off radiation like Kastrians and running around in plain sight of each other. Of course he would say that you get a better story by doing so, but I would argue while you make some things better, you diminish the story overall by making other things worse.

I agree. The Angels in Blink were damn scary because they were fast, but froze when they were seen. In Blink they couldn't even look at each other (indeed, the climax depends on that). Here they make no effort to avoid looking at each other at all. In Blink it was a physical effect: they could not move when they could be seen. Here it's an instinct, they freeze because they assume Amy can see them. Moreover, when they do move they do so very slowly. They don't send people back through time any more. Weakened them badly, in my view.

Even more significant is the same attitude towards the series’ whole arc – the cracked universe.

One of the big problems I've had this season is that there has been such a heavy emphasis on the arc. Right from epsode 1 it's thrown into the main focus. The Weeping Angels story changes direction halfway through to focus heavily on the cracks. The Vampires of Venice has aliens arriving through the crack, and then the bizarre silence in the last few seconds. The Silurian story plods along for an episode and a half, and then a crack appears and the emphasis shifts again, almost as if there's not enough plot for two full episodes.

In many ways I’d love to get away from the ‘big story arc – huge finale’ model that has worked well in the past, but to me actually seems to be stifling the show. How great would it be to have 13 un-connected adventures in series 6.

I firmly agree. If only because the drive to make bigger and better finales every year has run out of steam. We've had a future Earth attacked and devastated by an army of Daleks. We've had the present (ish) Earth attacked by Cybermen and Daleks. We've had the world actually conquered and subjugated by the Master. We've had all the Universes under threat from the Daleks. Now we've had all the Universes (almost) actually destroyed. There is literally nowhere else to go.

I'm also tired of having such obvious flags along the way. The only bit of The Eleventh Hour that made me groan was when Prisoner Zero delivered the line about the Pandorica. A crack in the Universe is an intriguing detail to be picked up along the series. The line about the Pandorica was an obvious foreshadowing, and we've had enough of that lately. Let's have a series of episodes that are self contained without huge amounts of obvious foreshadowing that take the place of the main plot of the episode.

[FlyingBeastie]

Umm, 'Prisoner Zero will leave the human residence or the human residence will be incinerated'?

Ah, but you forget- the Atraxi didn't know Prisoner Zero was there until the Doctor got there, remember?

Amy says something like, "Well why do they show up when you turn up the very same minute?" I've seen the episode four times, so I have a firm of grip of the story in that one, at least.

[FlyingBeastie]

Let's have a series of episodes that are self contained without huge amounts of obvious foreshadowing that take the place of the main plot of the episode.

Here, here!

[matthewsch]

In many ways I’d love to get away from the ‘big story arc – huge finale’ model that has worked well in the past, but to me actually seems to be stifling the show. How great would it be to have 13 un-connected adventures in series 6.

I'd love that!

[matthewsch]

Then there’s erasing from history – which we’re reminded numerous times means that you never existed. So

• Amy’s parents are erased from history – and yet Amy still exists.
• The original Angel in F&B gets erased, but the clerics killed by it don’t reappear, and the Byzantium still crashes (its heavily implied that the ship was sabotaged to crash, presumably by the Angel as it ends up in exactly the right place).
• People disappear but alternative people don’t appear. When all those clerics vanish are we really to assume that Octavian went on such a dangerous mission with so few personel ? What we should be getting is the appearance from nowhere of the clerics who would have been picked for the mission now those who vanished never existed.
• Same for Rory – if he never existed then who saved the Doctor from being shot at the end of Cold Blood ? And are we really to assume that if Rory had never existed Amy wouldn’t have had an alternative boyfriend (or that any other detail of her life being different) ?
• Even the remembering bit changes from story to story – one minute Amy can remember the missing clerics because she’s a time traveller, the next you only forget people who are in your personal timeline.

As for erasing the Doctor – there are too many consequences of that for us to end up with a perfectly happy universe and an Earth with an Amy and Rory wedding – if only because Turn Left proved that there was no-one left to defeat the Dalek Crucible and the Universes ended anyway.

Either the Doctor is hugely mistaken when he makes his assumptions about the crack erasing completely from history (and if so, we will probably find out more about that next series), or this is just a fictional reality where the normal rules that we're used to don't apply. The fact that a crack in the universe can swallow someone and prevent them from ever being born is ludicrous in the real world, as changing the past is impossible. In that sense, it makes more sense that the effect that Rory and others left on history has not vanished along with their existence, as that requires even more rewriting of time, which is impossible in the real world. Conclusively we can't even prove that they never existed, after all the wedding ring still existed, as well as Rory's and the clerics' contributions to the season; maybe they were only wiped from people's memory, and the Doctor is too stupid to figure that out (or he's pretending otherwise). The reason, therefore, that the whole of the universe was in danger was not because the cracks were erasing people/places/objects from ever having existed, but because they were removing their existence at every single point in their existence. Or, maybe the TARDIS explosion was directed at the dawn of the universe, destroying its existence before it has begun, which is why things and people began vanishing in the future (and only some cracks appeared in later time periods, which is why the cracks were not abundant for the first 11 episodes but few in number).

I'm not trying to justify inconsistencies, I just don't believe that Moffat would leave plot holes like this, and I know that he's probably got something more up his sleeve for Series 6 that will explain the cracks a lot better (well, we've going to learn more about the mysterious voice and River Song, so we will be definitely learning more about the explosion/cracks/etc.).

[FlyingBeastie]

I'm not trying to justify inconsistencies, I just don't believe that Moffat would leave plot holes like this, and I know that he's probably got something more up his sleeve for Series 6 that will explain the cracks a lot better

"Wanting, is better than having"

I just think he was in over his head and when he did have a vague idea as to how he wanted this series to go, he didn't have enough time to go over and tweak points like the ones mentioned.

I hope he goes back in the next series and dot all these i's and cross all these t's, but to be perfectly honest with you- I doubt he will. Hopefully, he'll realize his mistakes and go about the next series emphasizing the strength in stories as opposed to relying on the slick camerawork and quippy character banter to save the episodes.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

I agree. The Angels in Blink were damn scary because they were fast, but froze when they were seen. In Blink they couldn't even look at each other (indeed, the climax depends on that). Here they make no effort to avoid looking at each other at all. In Blink it was a physical effect: they could not move when they could be seen. Here it's an instinct, they freeze because they assume Amy can see them. Moreover, when they do move they do so very slowly. They don't send people back through time any more. Weakened them badly, in my view.

Yeah - that was part of my problem. They were so redone, they were kind of might as well be another monster. It was always an issue for people whether bringing them back would ruin them, and alas it did.

I also like your point how about half way through episode 2, it stops being about the angels, and starts being about the crack.

I remember finding the repeated mention of Torchwood quite tiresome thoughout season 2. But at least it didn't hijack whole stories like it did in this series.

And in the Angels stories, the Angels beg the Doctor to feed the crack to shut it. However they end up being fed to the crack instead. So what does he do in Cold Blood? Only puts his hand in it. That's real scientific!

[Zbigniev Hamson]

To answer Hanson, it was him because he materialized in the house and said "Pond's house" and when he goes outside, it's the night she was there waiting for him.

Well I still disagree. That figure was running through the kitchen at the same time Amy was sat outside waiting, awake. Whenever the Doctor arrived, it must have been quite some time later because Amy was asleep in the garden by that point, and he didn't arrive in the kitchen, and the only time we saw him moving at all he was calmly walking towards the sleeping Amy, and not running at all.

Okay it might have been him, it might not, but there's just no way you can categorically say it definitely is him on the evidence seen.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Hopefully, he'll realize his mistakes and go about the next series emphasizing the strength in stories as opposed to relying on the slick camerawork and quippy character banter to save the episodes.

Why are you suddenly talking about RTD here?

[Perry Vale]

I wasn't entirely sure what I thought about this on first viewing, I totally enjoyed it, but felt I had to soak it all in a bit first, and watch it again. And when I did that it became the clearest '10' of the season for me, simply wonderful stuff.

What I liked:-

- It was SO unlike any previous finale

- The return to Leadworth, and the pre-credit surprise of Amy inside the Pandorica

- That scene from 'Flesh & Stone', and the fact that I'd spotted it straight away on first viewing. A very rewarding feeling.

- The Fez

- The scene with The Doctor & Amy inside the Pandorica. Was Smith channelling.......Davison?

- The fact that Amy's dream in TEH had been just a dream, as I'd been arguing ever since

- The themes. Amy/Amelia had been the girl who waited, and Rory originally seemed no replacement for her imaginary friend. Then Rory becomes the boy who waited. For two thousand years. A beautiful image, and idea.

- Matt's wedding dance

- "I'm Amy's imaginary friend, but I came anyway"

- Space Florida

- Matt's acting throughout, especially the scene with Amelia asleep

- Smith & Darvill's excellent chemistry together (the punch, and especially the 'New Mr.Pond' bit)

- Amy's 'goodbye' to her world at the end

- Lots of other things

- and the real killer, for me, that had me looking for a 11/10 option.....the something borrowed, something blue resolution. Amazing stuff, and finally makes sense/puts in to perspective why Amy's wedding day was so important


Things I didn't like:-

- Nothing at all

Matt Smith was, again, perfect throughout, as were all the other regulars to slightly lesser degrees. Everything (I expected to) got answered, everything made sense*, and the whole 13 episodes were woven together in style.

Is it Christmas yet?


*apart from Moffat's one little cheat

[FlyingBeastie]

Why are you suddenly talking about RTD here?

You think series 1-4 had slick camerawork?

Plus, RTD delivered some powerful stories like Midnight (I know you didn't like it, but none of Moffat's stories matches up to it in terms of gravitas and suspense) a reason as to why I like the episode so much is because it addresses everything I HATE about the tenth Doctor. You see, no other Doctor can be in Midnight because the episode is specifically centered around this particular Doctor's attitude towards approaching a situation and how he's always putting himself first as the VIP because he's so "clever". In terms of drama, it's powerful and just such a beautiful a episode. That's the quality that Moffat is lacking, for me, with this series. He hasn't quite nailed the heart aspect of the series. We have great characters, but frankly there's that extra spark missing to make me actually care about any of them.

As for the Doctor running through the house: it makes no sense to have that sequence in The Eleventh Hour if it isn't The Doctor (especially since the shape is most definitely Smith) the only logical explanation to answer the fact that Amy is asleep in the flashback in Big Bang is because someone in the continuity department, yet again, was asleep at the wheel. Either that, or we're supposed to assume that Amy Pond has an iron deficiency in her system

[Andrew Curnow]

Would it be a bit dim of me to ask what you're talking about - is there a figure in the house in The Eleventh Hour? I'd heard theories about the 'future Doctor' in the forest from Flesh & Stone, but not seen any reference to someone in the house before.

[Rob McCow]

I Steve's post above.

I appreciate reasoned criticism and I always put the boot in when I don't like something, but it's so refreshing and uplifting to read a person's comments when they've really enjoyed an episode.

I'm not saying that everyone should love The Big Bang, but I find it delightful that people do.

[/soppy]