The Legacy Boxset (Shada & More Than 30 Years in the TARDIS) - coming 2013

[Lissa]

To be fair, the Adams estate isn't like the Nation estate and Lalla's involvement would probably be enough for them to let it go through (with perhaps another Comic Relief cut of the proceeds). The bit he's not explained is the "legal" alternative to 2E for distributing the thing if they don't want it. I know how he could get it out there without anyone suing him but not legally.

[Si Hunt]

But he hasn't broken any copyright if he hasn't released or publically broadcast anything has he?

Si.

[SiHart]

Copyright law is a tricky and mysterious thing.

Si xx

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Remember illegal piracy of season 17 Doctor Who could affect production of season 18!

If this does get released, it'll have a massive doco on it to "The contribution of Ian Levine". Eww ...

[Jason Thompson]

I thought it was JN-T who arranged for the existing SHada footage to be preserved, since he had plans to use it himself? Why is Levine taking credit for it?

I think the problem with Levine is that he's announced this and expected everyone to go 'ooh, isn't that great!', but what actually happened is that everyone pointed out the possible problems (someone phoned their lines in from LA?! What's that going to do to audio quality?) and limitations rather than giving Levine the unbridled adoration he so desperately seeks.

So no, he hasn't done anything wrong, and he hasn't broken any copyright issues. However, I notice he's left all that stuff to whichever company decides to release it. As is often the case, it seems, he undertakes these projects off his own back (and kudos to him for trying) but never takes the effort to arrange the release, so he's basically doing something for his own benefit that he might let others enjoy if the terms are good enough for him.

[Perry Vale]

How many Doctor Who fans does it take to change a lightbulb again?

One, Ian Levine. He rescued all the old lightbulbs when everyone switched over to energy-saving ones.

[Si Hunt]

I think the problem with Levine is that he's announced this and expected everyone to go 'ooh, isn't that great!', but what actually happened is that everyone pointed out the possible problems (someone phoned their lines in from LA?! What's that going to do to audio quality?) and limitations rather than giving Levine the unbridled adoration he so desperately seeks.

I don't think that's very fair - I don't know the details, but according to Levine this leaked, he didn't announce it.

And I very much doubt "phoned" means literally - it's probably web-speak for sending lines via e-mail, which means the quality could be perfect if Neame used a studio to record his lines.

I notice he's left all that stuff to whichever company decides to release it. As is often the case, it seems, he undertakes these projects off his own back (and kudos to him for trying) but never takes the effort to arrange the release, so he's basically doing something for his own benefit that he might let others enjoy if the terms are good enough for him.

Again, a bit unfair. You can't expect him to "arrange the release" because it just couldn't be done. The copyright is owned by the BBC, so the BBC have to release it, as I very much doubt they'd even consider licensing a DVD release to an amateur producer.

Yes, he's doing something for his own enjoyment, but what's wrong with that? If I could afford it, I would hire the actors and do the same. Why not? He wants a Shada soundtrack, he can afford to make one, and no-one else has done it. It's wrong to say he's letting others enjoy it if "the terms are good enough". He's not mentioned any "terms", he's just said that he'll offer it to 2E so we can all enjoy it, if they want to release it.

Si.

[SiHart]

That's all well and good, but what if Dan Hall and 2Entertain have been planning to do the same thing? What if they want to professionally direct and record it and none of the stars are interested having done it once? This could ultimately scupper a proper attempt by the BBC to do something with Shada along the same lines. And the BBC might be more likely to get Tom on board.

It might not, but it's a possibility. And one that probably hasn't crossed Mr Levine's mind.

I don't want to be downhearted about this, but I really do feel that Ian Levine is ultimately only doing this for himself and not for the greater good of fandom or the BBC or whatever without actually thinking about the potential repurcussions of his actions.

Si xx

[Simon R]

Surely it'll be utter shit? Everyone will sound so much older and without a proper drama director to push the performances it'll end up as wooden as those new bits from the Planet of Fire dvd.

[Lissa]

He's not mentioned any "terms", he's just said that he'll offer it to 2E so we can all enjoy it, if they want to release it.

He's made it quite clear that he's going to present 2E with a finished version and that they won't be able to change anything about it, rather than sending them a working version that they - including the RT - can give feedback on and suggest changes to. That's a fairly big term.

[Jason Thompson]

I don't think that's very fair - I don't know the details, but according to Levine this leaked, he didn't announce it.

All right, I stand corrected. However, he still comes across as being upset that everyone isn't falling over themselves to congratulate him rather than anything else.

And I very much doubt "phoned" means literally - it's probably web-speak for sending lines via e-mail,

Then why use the word 'phoned' at all? That's like saying Lalla Ward posted herself to Levine's place to record her lines.

which means the quality could be perfect if Neame used a studio to record his lines.

Or a bedroom, which seems to make a passable studio for our purposes....

Again, a bit unfair. You can't expect him to "arrange the release" because it just couldn't be done.

Why not? Why couldn't he contact the relevant people to say 'I have this project underway'? Didn't Levine contribute some of the extras on earlier releases? Did he just make those in his shed first and then say 'oh by the way...' when he heard 2Entertain were releasing the relevant story?

He wants a Shada soundtrack, he can afford to make one, and no-one else has done it.

Umm, except Big Finish....

It's wrong to say he's letting others enjoy it if "the terms are good enough". He's not mentioned any "terms", he's just said that he'll offer it to 2E so we can all enjoy it, if they want to release it.

Offer it to them for what repayment? No, he hasn't mentioned terms yet, but do we really think he's going to give it away when the time comes?

If he wants to make a Shada soundtrack fine, but why all the fuss about giving it to 2Entertain when he's done just now? Why not just get on with it? Why not say 'yes, this is what I'm doing' and leave it at that, instead of saying that 2Entertain would basicaly be idiots not to use his work when they officially release it?

It's not what he does that I take issue with, it's how he does it.

[Si Hunt]

That's all well and good, but what if Dan Hall and 2Entertain have been planning to do the same thing? What if they want to professionally direct and record it and none of the stars are interested having done it once?

This is a concern to me too Si. But from his point of view, if he wants this to happen, when does he stop waiting? I've been saying for a while that it's been foolish of the BBC to wait this long to get those lines in the can, just in case the technology exists to complete the story one day. Already two of the lead cast are dead. If you wait forever for someone else to do something, it might never happen.

Then why use the word 'phoned' at all? That's like saying Lalla Ward posted herself to Levine's place to record her lines.

I use that expression a lot as short-hand for sending lines via e-mail. Besides which it might be correct - Skype is via phone-line, and you could get crystal clear quality from that if you record directly from the PC input.

Why not? Why couldn't he contact the relevant people to say 'I have this project underway'?

Well perhaps he has. But that's not the same as releasing it himself. Your original point seemed to be that he should do "all that stuff" (i.e "copyright issues") himself, which I think would be impossible. Only the BBC would be cleared to release an unreleased Doctor Who story, surely?

Umm, except Big Finish....

That was a remake, not an original soundtrack. It didn't even have Tom in. I know it wasn't enough to lay "Shada" to rest for me, I still think the original version could be completed in some form - and in fact the BBC agree, as we know they are thinking about it.

but do we really think he's going to give it away when the time comes?

We don't know, but it's incorrect to say he is demanding "terms" when none have been issued yet. Unless you meant giving 2-E his finished version, rather than allowing them to use his source recordings, as Lissa suggested, which I don't think you did.

instead of saying that 2Entertain would basicaly be idiots not to use his work when they officially release it?

Again, he's not called them idiots. You're just putting words into his mouth.

Si.

[Perry Vale]

That was a remake, not an original soundtrack. It didn't even have Tom in.

Neither has this version!

He should rename it really, and call it 'ShIda'.....

[Si Hunt]

Fourth Doctor, then.

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

I use that expression a lot as short-hand for sending lines via e-mail. Besides which it might be correct - Skype is via phone-line, and you could get crystal clear quality from that if you record directly from the PC input.

Fine, I stand corrected. Still seems wrong to me, but I take your point.

Well perhaps he has. But that's not the same as releasing it himself. Your original point seemed to be that he should do "all that stuff" (i.e "copyright issues") himself, which I think would be impossible. Only the BBC would be cleared to release an unreleased Doctor Who story, surely?

What I meant was why not clear this as an official project, or attempt to, first? I'm not suggesting releasing it himself, but going to the BBC or 2Entertain or whoever and saying 'I've got this idea, why don't we do this?' rather than doing it and then trying to offer it to them. He might have got more money to do it that way.

That was a remake, not an original soundtrack. It didn't even have Tom in.

Well, so is this! There can only ever be 'remakes' of Shada, because it was partly completed. Just getting the original cast back doesn't make it the original Shada. Just recording lines doesn't make it the original Shada.

Again, he's not called them idiots. You're just putting words into his mouth.

Levine said:

And if you think 2/E would turn down the chance to make £200,00 profit out of my work (30,000 sales at less than seven pounds profit per disc - yes I have done my homework) then you're even more blind than I gave you credit for.

OK, he didn't actually use the word 'idiots', but I'm not the only one who sees it implied there, am I? He certainly seems convinced they'll want it when it's done.

As I said, it's not what he's doing but his attitude that bugs me. The Loose Cannon team put in a lot of work to restoring missing material, but I don't often hear about them railing against 2Entertain for their release plans, or for not wanting to use their stuff. Indeed, I read on every page of their website 'support the BBC releases'.

So on the one hand we have one group of people putting time and effort into something and sharing it with fandom in general, acknowledging the dubious line they tread in copyright terms and generally just getting on with it, and one individual putting time and effort into something which he has actually said he will enjoy privately if no-one wants to release it for profit. That's what I have a problem with.

[Si Hunt]

If your point is that he has an attitude on him, then fine. But I think we know that - he's not going to change is he? All I would say is, having read a lot about his exploits (wise and unwise) in the late seventies over the past few weeks, if he didn't have an attitude we wouldn't have a lot of early Doctor Who. Yes, I know he never lets us forget that, but it's true. Someone less pig-headed, persistant and unreasonable would simply have gone home and let them burn - it's a funny old world.

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

Oh I certainly don't forget that we do owe him for saving a lot early Who. It's just that he comes across as doing it more for his own benefit than anyone else's (how long did he have that copy of The Time Meddler while the BBC were looking for it?), and that we should all be eternally grateful whenever he decides to let us mere mortals share in his exploits. If I'd been an avid fan and had access to the BBC archives (and existed in the first place!) back then I would have snapped up every can of film I could find too. I don't think I'd have hidden it in my cellar for years after it was known that the new heads at the BBC wanted it back, knowing that there were many others like me out there who wanted to see the stuff, though.

[Si Hunt]

It wasn't that simple with "The Time Meddler".

I'm not defending him - but, well, what an absurd situation.

Imagine it. You recover a haul of missing stories from a TV Station. You decide to give the BBC back all but one - in this climate, it feels like there are missing episodes flying about all over the place. Could you get more back if you actually held back - stole, even - one story as a bargaining chip for getting more back? So you do.

Then - what are the chances - an edited copy of said story comes back to the BBC shortly afterwards! Your copy is now worthless for trade, yet if you hand it back, the Beeb will twig you held onto it because of the coincidental timing.

I guess he could have handed it back and just said it was a coincidence - which it kind of was. Maybe he did the wrong thing and kept it. However, I guess we should bear in mind that what he essentially had was a few minutes extra of "missing" footage from a story that existed almost complete at the BBC. It was wrong, but it's not like he had the whole of "Galaxy Four" stashed away.

Si.

[Andrew Curnow]

Without really wanting to inflame this one any more... I don't think Ian Levine actually personally saved that many episodes did he? Yes he certainly stopped some being burned, and raised the awareness perhaps of the fact that things were just being chucked away - but in terms of actual returned episodes since then, I don't think that many are really down to him. So I'm always a little dubious when he suggests that many are - I've even seen him take credit for Tomb, on the grounds that he'd contacted Hong Kong himself some 15 years prior to when somebody else found it there!!

Also, I think actually Keith Barnfather saved the tapes of Shada, simply due to the luck of being a Who fan working in the 'chuck out old tapes' department.

As for Shada... I'd dearly love to see a complete version, but at the end of the day it's only ever going to be some kind of cobbled together part-real, part-animated version. And based on Lalla's voice on the web version, I have to assume everybody's going to sound 30 years older - it's like Pertwee in the radio plays, he never sounded like he'd been timescooped from 1974. Some times I think you have to accept that some things don't exist, no matter how much you wish for it.

[Stuart Wallis]

And lest we forget his efforts to colourise his efforts to colourise The Ambassadors Of Death? I did say at the time I hoped for his own sake he succeeded, because he'd look very foolish if he failed after all the crowing he'd been making about of course he'd succeed; but on past record, how more insufferable would he have been if he had pulled it off?

Si, it's fine to have an attitude on you if it gets results in the way Ian has, but Jason's right as well - I think we can all agree it is a funny old world, he can be a right 'un when he wants to be.

[Si Hunt]

Without really wanting to inflame this one any more... I don't think Ian Levine actually personally saved that many episodes did he? Yes he certainly stopped some being burned, and raised the awareness perhaps of the fact that things were just being chucked away

Read the new book "Wiped!" by Richard Molesworth, it's a great read. He did save quite a few episodes after the initial awareness had been raised - he personally contacted lots of TV stations and had them returned and handed them back.

But what he did in '78 - well the truth is, that the only copies of dozens of stories were stored at Villiers House as film prints. They were still being burnt as the weeks went by. He marched down there, having started privately arranging to buy the episodes off the BBC (he paid thousands for "Frontier in Space") and found them still wiping them. He was actually worried that the woman in charge would chuck the only remaining copies of Season 1 into the skip out of spite while he was returning to Enterprises for permission to stop her (as you can imagine, when he arrived he was less than tactful).

Some time after, even when Sue Maldon was established and they were searching for the missing episodes, he still found them getting rid of studio footage and stuff (I'm not sure if this includes "Shada", hence his claim to have saved it)! Maldon said no-one wanted it, so he sort of said "For Christs sake, give it to me rather than burn it!". I find it incredible that at this stage, they were still disposing of footage.

Anyway, what he did that was most of value, and what I will always respect him for above being a bolshy, arrogant, disruptive, impolite whatever, was that he went in there and stopped them wiping out the rest of Doctor Who. If he hadn't of shown up, or even if he hadn't of been such a tosser about it, the only surviving copies of most of what we have would be gone. People tend to think that there were loads of copies of the sixties episodes - there wern't! The stuff in that place was all that was left, and it would probably be all gone if he hadn't of charged in and kicked up a stink.

He's never let us forget it, but it's still true.

Si.

[SiHart]

Shada's not even that good is it?

Si xx

[Dirk Gently]

I've always liked it.

[SiHart]

I think it's the weakest story in Season 17. If it wasn't half made there wouldn't be anything particularly remarkable or outstanding about it. But that's just my opinion, of course!

Si xx

[Andrew Curnow]

No, I quite agree Si. Lalla's acting in the existing scenes seems to be far more 'amateurish' than in the rest of season 17 ("The Professor is a brave & clever man" is cringe-inducing, for example) and the Krarg costumes aren't a patch on the other monsters that year (IMHO). Don't get me wrong, it's very enjoyable, and I like watching it, but somehow it doesn't quite have the same sparkle as its contemporaries.