A fragmented country?

[WhiteCrowNZ]

Interesting with all the talk of student tuition going.

I knew for a fact that in Scotland there are no tuition fees at University for Scottish students, or students from Europe ... but there are for English and Welsh students ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12499265

It was announced earlier this week that in Wales, the basic fee level is to rise to £4,000, with a maximum level of £9,000.

Welsh students travelling to other parts of the UK to study will have their fees subsidised.

In Northern Ireland, a report commissioned by the Department of Employment and Learning (DEL) has recommended that fees should rise to a maximum of £5,750.

In Scotland, students do not pay tuition fees but there growing calls for some kind of "graduate contribution".

It's not just education - but also in healthcare provision as well. Depending on whether you're in England, Scotland or Wales affects the standard / cost of services. Does that annoy you?

[Lissa]

The problem - like most of what New Labour actually did - is that they did devolution badly. It was a bit here, a bit there, all apparently based on which bunch of Celts shouted the loudest at any given moment. What we sort of have now is a half-baked federal system where some things are decided some of the time by some of the regions. Either everything should be decided by the British Parliament or there should be clearly defined areas of policy that are decided by the English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish Parliaments and clearly defined areas that are decided by the British Parliament.

I'm sure different states in America have different education policies and students from some states are better off than others. But because California doesn't rub it in New York's face for pathetic political reasons, no one really minds. The Scotch on the other hand just love pointing it out when they are seen to have an advantage over the English. Though it's fair that Scotch children don't pay tuition fees as their life expectancy is so low that they wouldn't have time to pay them back before the deep fried lager kills them off.

I've never been a huge fan of the call for an English parliament but the more I learn about countries like America and Australia which have state and national parliaments with clear lines of authority, the more I think an English parliament is necessary. It simply doesn't work to have Scotch and Welsh assemblies acting in purely selfish terms while all England's decisions are made by a British parliament that tries desperately not to be (seen to be) selfish towards England.

[Captain Tancredi]

You can get me very annoyed on this subject if you want to.

To add to what Lissa says about New Labour, what I think is particularly objectionable is that from 1997 to 2010, the Prime Minister and Chancellor were both Scots presiding over a system which made a point of redirecting money to the Celtic fringe- if that isn't a conflict of interest I don't know what is. And it's not just education, it's health, transport, all sorts of public services- or to look at it another way, I get paid on the same scale as people doing similar jobs in our other head office in Glasgow who have lower prescription charges and property costs, so should we in Leeds not be paid more?

It makes me less angry than it used to, though. In the next few years the devolved assemblies will no doubt have to make cuts which they'll blame on Westminster in order to make political capital. But my concern about English devolution is that if you took the whole of England as one it would inevitably be biased towards the south-east rather than the areas which really need help- Cornwall, Northumberland, Cumbria and the post-industrial North. I'd much rather have regional devolution and a German-style federal system.

[MacNimon]

I've got to agree with you on some points. Particulary on the subject of healthcare - I really don't think it's fair how potentially life-saving drugs are freely available on the NHS in some areas, but not in others. There's something fundamentally wrong when where you live has such a massive bearing on the survival chances of a seriously ill patient. If a drug is available in one part of the country on the NHS, it should be available for all. I wasn't actually aware that prescription charges were lower up here in Scotland (not that I'm complaining if they are! I don't know the last time I had to get something on prescription, though so I can't comment on the costs) But as I said above, I reckon it should cost the same wherever you live in the UK.

As for education, well the Scottish (not Scotch, Lissa...that's a drink! ) education system has evolved a a totally seperate entity from it's English counterpart over a period of centuries...it's not fair to suggest that there's something actually wrong with this. It's different, that's all. As for whether it's better or not is down to individual schools, I'd say...it doesn't matter what part of the UK you live there will be a selection of excellent schools alongside a selection of very poor schools; surely it has nothing to do with the education system itself but rather the standard of teacher to be found in any particular part of the country? I've never heard of anyone rubbishing the English education system, although I have heard of teachers/lecturers etc who are proud of the standard of education which they provide - a totally different thing altogether. I have friends and family in the teaching profession, and they are proud of the job they do, often in trying circumstances.
I'm not sure exactly what the situation is up here as regards tuition fees, although I'm sure I'll find out in a few years when my daughter decides what she wants to do when leaving school. I find it hard to believe though that their aren't any tuition fees up here (I'm the first to admit that I could be completely wrong here though, I'd really need to do more research) (on second thoughts though - about to cancel out my own argument here! - I remember waaaay back in the early 80s when I was at college it didn't cost myself or my parents anything, although I only got a minimum bursary to live on). As I see it, if that's the way the Scottish education system works, why not? I think it's nonsense though that it should cost English students money to study here, but not foreigners. It smacks of hypocrisy to me. There's nothing wrong with looking after your own; if a student has worked his/her way through the Scottish education system then why shouldn't they be entitled to any benefits which may exist? What I don't agree with is that English students should pay, but not Continental Europeans. To prevent any charge of favouritism (racism, even?) wouldn't it simply make more sense to have everyone who hasn't gone through the Scottish Education system pay? After all, doesn't a Scottish student who goes to an English college/University have to pay tuition fees?

Ian has a point too regarding the differential in wages/living conditions between Leeds and Glasgow. But isn't that something which should be taken up with your employer? I live only 30 miles from Glasgow but there is a substantial difference in wages between ourselves and people doing similar jobs there...while we'd like more money, mortgages etc in Glasgow are much more expensive than they are here so we've just got to accept it.

But I wouldn't simply blame New Labour for all our problems. Those politicians are all as bad as each other...a bunch of balloons, full of hot air!

[MacNimon]

Though it's fair that Scotch children don't pay tuition fees as their life expectancy is so low that they wouldn't have time to pay them back before the deep fried lager kills them off.

No need for that comment, Lissa...that's only the neds and scroungers who won't ever have to worry about tuition fees that you're referring to there!

[Lissa]

the Scottish (not Scotch, Lissa...that's a drink! )

I know - it's something Stewart Lee did in one of his shows and it amused me. Generally I take Nicholas Young's suggestion from one of the Tomorrow People commentaries and refer to them as North British.

[Captain Tancredi]

Lord Byron wrote a piece called 'English Bards and Scotch Reviewers' and he was educated partly in Aberdeen, so the distinction must have come in within the last 200 years. And where do mist and pies fit in, anyhow?

Although the North British Hotel is one of the most exclusive in Edinburgh (it's the one sat on top of Waverley station), it's potentially even more loaded as Cromwell wanted to abolish the distinction between England and Scotland and use the term North Britain for the latter instead. In much the same way that post-revolutionary France abolished historic regions like Aquitaine and Burgundy and replaced them with the [I]departements[I] named after rivers and mountains to break up the old allegiances.

[Anthony Williams]

The way that devolution was carried out was a total mess. Why did it happen? To appease those clamouring for independence. You have a very powerful Scottish Parliament, and somewhat less powerful Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies. England's issues are still thrashed out in Westminster, and Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs get a vote on matters that exclusively affect England. What a mess!

So, what are the options? Well, power is still sovereign at Westminster. If push came to shove, power could be (and has been once, in the case of Northern Ireland) be recalled to Westminster. This would obviously be anathema to a lot of Scottish people who feel that the devolution solution (oooh that'd make a good title for a Doctor Who episode!) didn't go far enough.

My personal preference is that if the UK is going to devolve power, then it should be done properly. Go full out and have a federal system. It's the only sensible way of doing it. That said, if I had my way, everything would be recalled to Westminster.

Ant x

[WhiteCrowNZ]

But the Scottish people are quite happy with their current system that provides them with perks funded using English taxes Ant ...

[Anthony Williams]

But the Scottish people are quite happy with their current system that provides them with perks funded using English taxes Ant ...

Not all of them, if you ask that nice Mr Salmond...

Ant x