Rate and Discuss 6.2: Day of the Moon

[FlyingBeastie]

Kay, I'm rewatching it, and you guys are right- the River jumping off the roof thing is explained.

BUT, I only ended up finding another flaw:

When The Doctor is in the oval office telling Nixon to bug everything, and River pops her head outside of the TARDIS to tell him Canton's in trouble...

Umm... how do they know he's in trouble?

It's established a minute later that the recorder is only one way, so it can't be that. And we don't see Canton with the phone till later, so I doubt he has it on him. If anyone would have the phone, it'd be Amy, and she's busy getting locked up in a mysterious room.


My gripes have been about just how terribly written and lazy this episode is, not so much about the unanswered questions regarding the arc.


Also, I've yet to see at any point where The Doctor says, "Aha! The Silents are evil! Let's stop their dastardly plan!"

Nope. In fact The Doctor doesn't have any sort of clue of what their plan is, and actually says how The Silents have been living in the shadows throughout thousands of years influencing them and how the humans only now have a sudden urge to go to the moon.

NOTHING TO JUSTIFY GENOCIDE.

He also says, "We should be safer now. No point in a dead hostage."

::shakes head with defeated sigh::

Sooo many things wrong and illogical with that sentence.

Also, you'd think a woman who had the mental strength to bring back The Doctor from... whatever it was the point of last series was- would be able to be strong enough to counter the Silence and remember she'd been with them for days...


It was also never said what The Doctor was doing to Apollo 11 apart from, "something clever"



Someone mentioned the Dwarf Star/message thing- simple answer for that:

The door was left open.

[Perry Vale]

I'm starting to wish I'd voted it higher now.

[Andrew Curnow]

My gripes have been about just how terribly written and lazy this episode is

As already established, I wasn't that keen either - but I wouldn't say it was terribly written or lazy, far from it. There are (IMHO) leaps which I can't easily take (the Doctor being locked up, his decision to take against the Silence despite having no real reason to) - but that's part of the writer's sleight of hand isn't it? By which I mean, we kinda automatically assume the Doctor to be doing the right thing, and the monsters to be evil, so we 'go with it' on 'autopilot' a lot of the time. On this occasion the story didn't sweep me along sufficiently for me not to spot that, but that's probably my problem!

Trouble is, when we get an episode/story we don't like it's then easy to start finding more and more reasons to justify that dislike - whereas in a story we really enjoyed, we'd be far more forgiving.

[Rob McCow]

terribly written and lazy

Y'know, these two complaints really bug me. I've heard them a heck of a lot ever since the show came back.

It's interesting, because the show is enjoyed and regularly watched by millions of people. Yet it's often described as 'badly written'. Reconciling these two things is pretty difficult. Surely millions of people wouldn't tune in every week to watch a show with atrocious writing? Are they all thick? Are they upset about all these loose ends and apparent plot problems?

So what is 'good' writing? Is it about tying up everything and making it utterly watertight? I don't think it is. In my opinion, it's about making an engaging and entertaining story. I reckon Doctor Who succeeds on that front.

You could pick plot-holes and inconsistencies in every piece of TV drama and 99% of English literature. Does that mean that they're all sloppily written?

I think that unless it's something vital to the story, these kinds of problems are unimportant. You shouldn't let them spoil your enjoyment. In a way, it's kind of fun to point them out. It's the same kind of pleasure that people get from looking at movie mistakes - so I'd never begrudge anyone finding these things. But I don't think it's a good reason to make the accusation of terrible writing.

Sorry that you got the brunt of this Flying Beastie, this is something that has been bugging me for years because loads of people say it. I'd like to reply like this to all of them!

[Paul Monk]

Can I just pop up and say that I've really enjoyed these too episodes or is that a controversial opinion now?

I'd loved the way it made me feel uneasy and disorientated. I love the way they were both comfortable and uncomfortable. I also love the loose threads. I'm quite happy to not have everything tied up (as long as they don't do a Lost) and I loved that it was funny, creepy and moving as well.
The show has felt revitalised for me this year and last.

(Oh and can I say that the Doctor realises the Silents must be bad when they say their name and he remembers all the warnings previously)

Anyway sorry my post was a bit cryptic. I'll reveal everything in about 6 weeks time, or maybe 13!

[Si Hunt]

Surely millions of people wouldn't tune in every week to watch a show with atrocious writing

I feel I must remind you that as well written as Doctor Who was, on the same evening 50% more people tuned in to "Britain's Got Talent", a show where former Baywatch and Knight Rider star David Hasselhoff passes judgement on members of the public juggling and performing topless Greek dance routines. So viewing figures don't neccessarily tally with quality of programming.

Si.

[Jon Masters]

Last week I was unhappy because we seemed to have a set of cool images and ideas, rather than a coherent story, but was willing to wait until this week to see if it was justified.

Sadly, for me, we seemed to get just more of the same - the whole pretitles X-Files like sequence, the Beardy Doctor in chains, the Richard Nixon stuff (obviously paid a lot for the actor and make-up - lets use him more), the creepy children's home, the Silents hanging from the ceiling, the 'voice from an electrinic device' . None of it really hung together, and plot points were whisked through at high speed in the hope that you wouldn't think about them. They couldn't even resolve the cliffhanger properly.

The Silence, like the Angels, were a good concept wasted, and seemed to develop powers and skills at a whim just because you couldn't explain the plot otherwise. The face & skin marking was pointless as you would notice the time jumps more (or not, as we seemed to ignore missing time when it made the scene look cooler) - or they could just hypnotise you to remove the mark straight away; they seemed to have teleport abilities when it suited, everything they said wasn't post hypnotic until it needed to be, and after a good plan to get humans to scare the Silents off earth the Doctor lets River slaughter them in a way Eric Saward would have been proud of.

More seriously, this incessant desire to set up story arcs has severely damaged what could have been a good story. Old who set up questions, and gave you most of the answers by the end of a story. RTD introduced the story arc in mild form to give us something to spot and ponder on, and rewarded regular veiwers with (OK often unsatisfactory) answers.

DW is now going the way of series 5-6 X-files - there are so many unanswered questions already from previous Moffat stories and last series to worry about, without the dozen or so that were crowbarred so clumsily into the last 2 episodes. (I might start a list in another thread). There was more than enough story to fill two episodes with the Silence, but we weren't given the chance - too many set ups for 'clever' punchlines later in the series.

Keep on like this and I'll care less and less if and when we finally get any answers.

Oh, and the figure in the spacesuit is (a) still too damn tall to be a child and (b) has someone in it when the Doctor dies, otherwise he spends his final minutes chatting to an empty suit.

[Jason Thompson]

He also says, "We should be safer now. No point in a dead hostage."

::shakes head with defeated sigh::

Sooo many things wrong and illogical with that sentence.

Which would be a perfectly valid criticism, if the Doctor hadn't actually said:

"She should be safe for now: no point in a dead hostage"

Which makes a lot more sense.

Also, you'd think a woman who had the mental strength to bring back The Doctor from... whatever it was the point of last series was- would be able to be strong enough to counter the Silence and remember she'd been with them for days...

Why? The former was due to her living right next to the crack for her entire life: 'the universe pouring through her head' as the Doctor says. Why does that mean she should be able to remember a group of aliens that specifically edit themselves out of memory?

It was also never said what The Doctor was doing to Apollo 11 apart from, "something clever"

That was pretty clear when he activated the relay that inserted the video of the Silent into the Apollo 11 first step live broadcast.

[Jason Thompson]

after a good plan to get humans to scare the Silents off earth the Doctor lets River slaughter them in a way Eric Saward would have been proud of.

Difficult to see what else they could have done to get five people out of the control room into the TARDIS with all the Silents in there trying ti kill them.

Oh, and the figure in the spacesuit is (a) still too damn tall to be a child

The spacesuit can move with no-one in it, so the height of the occupant is surely irrelevant.

[Jason Thompson]

For me, why I've had more of a problem with this two-parter than with any other stories which have had some kind of arc elements is this:

I think the problem surely is more to do with the fact that it was advertised as a two-parter when it clearly is not anything of the sort. As I said, it is really the first two episodes of a 13 episode serial.

[Paul Clement]

I feel I must remind you that as well written as Doctor Who was, on the same evening 50% more people tuned in to "Britain's Got Talent", a show where former Baywatch and Knight Rider star David Hasselhoff passes judgement on members of the public juggling and performing topless Greek dance routines. So viewing figures don't neccessarily tally with quality of programming.

Si.

I've said the same thing about Primeval being better than Doctor Who in recent seasons. Although this new season has started off much better.

[Jon Masters]

The spacesuit can move with no-one in it, so the height of the occupant is surely irrelevant.

No, River said it was repairing itself and asked the Doctor whether it might be able to move by itself. Not quite the same thing.

Still doesn't help with the height thing - if her face is just visible inside the helmet, then her feet must be above the level of the suit's knees and her hands at its elbows - not very comfy or easy to balance, and she's have no muscle tone at all if she was spending all her time in a suit which she didn't have to move herself - no bursting out of the suit and running to hide down corridors.

[Paul Clement]

There was one moment in the episode that the incidental music kicked in a bit of dialogue became a little difficult to hear, and on occasion the Silent were a little hard to understand. Luckily, I'd recorded the episode and was able to rewind and listen again... and again for the former issue before understanding what was said.

[Jason Thompson]

No, River said it was repairing itself and asked the Doctor whether it might be able to move by itself. Not quite the same thing.

She only asked that because the hand did move by itself. If it can do that while damaged, it's not a huge stretch to imagine that the whole suit can walk when fully functional.

she's have no muscle tone at all if she was spending all her time in a suit which she didn't have to move herself - no bursting out of the suit and running to hide down corridors.

Why not, since she is clearly not human?

[Jon Masters]

Why not, since she is clearly not human?

River said the suit was set up to support a human physiology (don't worry...I'm not expecting it's going to make any sense )

[FlyingBeastie]

Which would be a perfectly valid criticism, if the Doctor hadn't actually said:

"She should be safe for now: no point in a dead hostage"

Which makes a lot more sense.

How does that make more sense? That's even worse than what I thought I heard!

Really, think about it.

How does he know she's safe? How does he know they just won't kill her? He doesn't know anything about the Silence for him to conclude they're a rational bunch of aliens.

From the Vonnegut School of Writing, this line has no point and makes no sense.

Why? The former was due to her living right next to the crack for her entire life: 'the universe pouring through her head' as the Doctor says. Why does that mean she should be able to remember a group of aliens that specifically edit themselves out of memory?

Yeah, you'd think the perks of having the universe flooding your brain would make your mental strength that much stronger- such as how certain characters have been established in the past to be able to see past the psychic paper.

Wasn't the whole reset basically a mass editing of her memory anyway?

That was pretty clear when he activated the relay that inserted the video of the Silent into the Apollo 11 first step live broadcast.

I didn't notice that the first three times I've seen this episode. Thanks for pointing that out.



Also, if it's not lazy writing than what is it? Deliberately choppy writing? I honestly just think Moffat is too arrogant to have his stories passed through an editor.

I also wouldn't mind certain plot holes like the ones in these episodes if I was at least enjoying myself, gripped, or cared about the characters within the story.

Last year, "Grey's Anatomy" had the episode with the shooter in the hospital. Now, there was a very glaring plot point that the writer skipped over in order for the shooter to able to continue his rampage. However, I shrugged it off and actually didn't notice it because I was into what was going on and was actually quite freaked out as to who was going to die.

Not so, with this two-parter.

I also don't mind minor missteps in writing, but with the ones I pointed out- they're not minor because a lot of what happens that's vital is contingent upon them.

[FlyingBeastie]

or they could just hypnotise you to remove the mark straight away; they seemed to have teleport abilities when it suited, everything they said wasn't post hypnotic until it needed to be

I don't see how this can't be under the heading of "Lazy Writing".

I guess ya'll have never watched redlettermedia and his Star Wars Reviews. In one scene, he talks about the speed of Jedi when they run. In the opening, when the battledroids come out, the Jedi's are able to instantly escape from their line of fire at a superhuman mph. BUUUUUT when you go to the ending and Obi Wan is stopped by one of the force field doors the result is Qui-gon Gin getting killed.

Hmm... maybe that would've been a good time for Obi-wan to use his Jedi running powers.

But do you see what I'm getting at? The writer had no idea how to get the characters out of the first situation so he gave them the ability to run super fast. HOWEVER, this completely contradicts what happens in the second scenario because of what's been established in the first.

Moffat's not really letting the story flow as it should, but instead is twisting things around to work when it suits the plot even if it contradicts things that have been established.

So if it's not lazy, and it's not bad, then what is it?

Convenient writing?

More seriously, this incessant desire to set up story arcs has severely damaged what could have been a good story. Old who set up questions, and gave you most of the answers by the end of a story. RTD introduced the story arc in mild form to give us something to spot and ponder on, and rewarded regular veiwers with (OK often unsatisfactory) answers.

I'm not saying RTD is OMGBESTWRITEREVER. I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that he developed that level of trust with the audience where you knew that when he set stuff up you were gonna get an answer.

WHETHER YOU LIKED THE ANSWER OR NOT, YOU GOT ONE.

Moffat hasn't established that sense of trust. At least for me. Cos he didn't give us much at the end of last series.

So what is 'good' writing? Is it about tying up everything and making it utterly watertight? I don't think it is. In my opinion, it's about making an engaging and entertaining story. I reckon Doctor Who succeeds on that front.

Lemme try something that's not Grey's- lemme go with "Doomsday".

Something that could've turned the entire ending around, if you will.

The Doctor establishes that the (haven't seen it in a while, is it the ghost machine?) sucks up everything with "void stuff" and there needs to be someone there to hold down the levers. And, in the end, it's him and Rose. Rose falls in, dad saves her, the end.

BUT

There was someone who didn't have void stuff on them that actually could've helped save the day and not had a problem at all with being sucked in.

Jackie Tyler.

He even establishes that at one point, I believe.

But you're so engrossed with what's happening you don't really notice it, and if you do, you sort of shake it off cos of what's going to happen- we're all waiting for that point when Rose is supposed to die.


But I'm not complaining. Even now, I don't really mind.

In part cos I care a lot about those characters and there weren't other glaring things missing from the picture or choices that the characters were making were illogical.

Plus, the dramatic payoff was stellar!

Last season, there was no payoff. And being that there's a break in the middle of this season, I don't see us getting a payoff anytime soon.

And that bugs me.

You need to throw your audience a bone. If you keep throwing more questions at them, they're eventually just going to tune out.

Again, another thing I think that should be worrying is that Moffat has made this era so convoluted following this "mystery plot" that I can't see how casual viewers or new viewers can tune in and catch on.

Yes, RTD's era also had arcs, but we were still able to enjoy standalone episodes once in a while. Or at least the arc wasn't so prevailing. But I'm also not saying Who should turn into Voyager either. But with the way things are going with how Moffat is constructing things, he's narrowing the demographic.

I'll just end it here, on my part, cos we all obviously have differences of opinions and this discussion isn't getting us anywhere. But one thing I would like to point out is that I was very excited when Moffat came on board as his previous stories and Coupling led me to believe he was the right man for the job.

And Eleventh Hour was a brilliant reinforcement of the fact I was going to enjoy his version of Who. However, series 5 turned out to be very boring, very pretentious at certain points, the storylines were trite and easy to figure out their resolution before the halfway mark, he ruined the angels, and worst of all I feel he's weakened the role of The Doctor.

I actually don't feel Smith gets enough screentime and hasn't gotten much development. In part, because there's too many companions- my brother and I had a discussion about this- The Doctor should only really have a male companion, if there are things the Doctor can't do himself. Like, a Hartnell or a Troughton or a Baker would need a young male companion to do a bit of running or something actiony.

Hence, it wouldn't have made sense if Jamie stayed on with Pertwee or if Pertwee had a male companion at all, cos he can finish business himself.

I really dunno what the point of Rory being in the TARDIS is.

And whenever River shows up, she just makes The Doctor look incompetent: Oh look, he can't land the TARDIS properly. Oh look, he can't cloak the TARDIS-

Look, it was grimace-making the first time, with Moffat ruining the TARDIS noise forever (or at least for his era), but for this two-parter it was just ridiculous.

Maybe some of you didn't mind and liked it- but, frankly, it just adds to The Doctor's repitoire of not being the brightest tool in the shed.

[Awesome Wells]

I want a pizza roll.

[Rob McCow]

So what did happen to your wife?

If you don't enjoy something you tend to pick it apart more.

You could ask a billion extra questions about Day of The Astronaut that you haven't even considered. How did Amy get into the situation where she was running through the desert being chased by cars? There's no feasible way that could have happened. And why was she wearing the same clothes three months later? Why was there such a huge children's home with only one child and one adult in it? Surely it should have been knocked down. How did they manage to angle the TARDIS so River could land in the swimming pool? How did they get the speaker-device out of Amy's hand? Is Clanton's partner still alive in 2011? How did the Doctor fit the TARDIS into the lavatory in the restaurant? Why didn't THEY have any STRAWS in the RESTAURANT ffs!!!?!?!?!?

Anyhoo, I'm still quite enjoying the debate / argument / enraged posting!

The opening two parter, IMO was a whirlwind of pace, energy and thrills, with enough questions to keep the message boards buzzing for months (which I believe was the point of the exercise). I think a lot of people are going to enjoy coming up with their own theories as to what's really going on.

And next week the show will be different.

I feel I must remind you that as well written as Doctor Who was, on the same evening 50% more people tuned in to "Britain's Got Talent"

And Doctor Who is the ONLY non-soap drama on TV that can come close to competing with the simple, addictive fun of a talent contest. (Or, as I should say, bloody freak show.)

[Perry Vale]

Again, another thing I think that should be worrying is that Moffat has made this era so convoluted following this "mystery plot" that I can't see how casual viewers or new viewers can tune in and catch on.

Yet they do, and they did. There's plenty of posts on Roobarbs forum from people who watched this episode with "casual" viewers who don't normally watch. And they all 'got it' and followed it.

[Wayne]

Last week I was unhappy because we seemed to have a set of cool images and ideas, rather than a coherent story, but was willing to wait until this week to see if it was justified.

Sadly, for me, we seemed to get just more of the same - the whole pretitles X-Files like sequence, the Beardy Doctor in chains, the Richard Nixon stuff (obviously paid a lot for the actor and make-up - lets use him more), the creepy children's home, the Silents hanging from the ceiling, the 'voice from an electrinic device' . None of it really hung together, and plot points were whisked through at high speed in the hope that you wouldn't think about them. They couldn't even resolve the cliffhanger properly.

The Silence, like the Angels, were a good concept wasted, and seemed to develop powers and skills at a whim just because you couldn't explain the plot otherwise. The face & skin marking was pointless as you would notice the time jumps more (or not, as we seemed to ignore missing time when it made the scene look cooler) - or they could just hypnotise you to remove the mark straight away; they seemed to have teleport abilities when it suited, everything they said wasn't post hypnotic until it needed to be, and after a good plan to get humans to scare the Silents off earth the Doctor lets River slaughter them in a way Eric Saward would have been proud of.

More seriously, this incessant desire to set up story arcs has severely damaged what could have been a good story. Old who set up questions, and gave you most of the answers by the end of a story. RTD introduced the story arc in mild form to give us something to spot and ponder on, and rewarded regular veiwers with (OK often unsatisfactory) answers.

DW is now going the way of series 5-6 X-files - there are so many unanswered questions already from previous Moffat stories and last series to worry about, without the dozen or so that were crowbarred so clumsily into the last 2 episodes. (I might start a list in another thread). There was more than enough story to fill two episodes with the Silence, but we weren't given the chance - too many set ups for 'clever' punchlines later in the series.

Keep on like this and I'll care less and less if and when we finally get any answers.

Oh, and the figure in the spacesuit is (a) still too damn tall to be a child and (b) has someone in it when the Doctor dies, otherwise he spends his final minutes chatting to an empty suit.

[Jason Thompson]

How does that make more sense? That's even worse than what I thought I heard!

Really, think about it.

I have, thanks.

Yes, it is not a logical statement, because the Doctor has no idea she's a hostage or that they're not doing something horrible to her or whatever. However, it makes more sense than what you said because he is referring only to her, not anyone else. More to the point, he says it to Rory. Her husband. The guy who is probably going out of his mind worrying about her and might just need a bit of support at that point. From that view it is no worse than saying 'don't worry, you'll be fine' to someone going into an exam. It's not a logical statement, it's a supportive one.

Yeah, you'd think the perks of having the universe flooding your brain would make your mental strength that much stronger-

Why? Have you had the universe pouring through your head recently? I see no reason the two should be connected at all.

Wasn't the whole reset basically a mass editing of her memory anyway?

So now you're saying she is susceptible to memory editing, so why should she be resistant to the Silence?

[SiHart]

And apparently it wasn't a mass editing of her memory either, as if Rory can remember what happened before, then surely she can as well (as demonstrated when she remembered the Doctor at her wedding last year anyway...)

[Si Hunt]

I don't know if this has been covered, but speaking as someone who loved both episodes, about the only thing I thought was poor was the cliffhanger between them. I'm getting a little fed up of the dreaded "3 months later" caption, and the sole resolution to Amy shooting the child turned out to be a throwaway "Good job I missed" or something. Lame!

Si.

[Rob McCow]

They'll probably commission a novel to fill in the gap between the stories. It could be a collection of short stories like 'Martha's Tale' which filled in what Martha got up to during The Last of The Time Lords. Best of all, they could call it 'Doctor Who Searches Out Silence'.