Rate and Discuss 6.2: Day of the Moon

[SiHart]

On the run!

What did you think of Day of the Moon?

[Dino]

So where is this great drop in episode two then?
I loved that, I forgot how this show can get away with doing twists like that.
Back to normal next week then.

[SiHart]

Buh! My brain is melting from all that- lots to keep hold of and keep pondering about, but I thoroughly enjoyed that and am looking forward to finding out just what the hell is actually going on!

[Matthew T]

Thought that was marvellous, barely any idea whats going on though! Who is the child, why was she in a spacesuit and why did she shoot The Doctor?! Was it connected to The Silence or not???

[SiHart]

And the cliffhanger! Oh my!

[Rob McCow]

Schrödinger's Pregnancy?!?!?!

So, one question answered, 10,000,000 left to go! Woop woop.

Gave it 10.

[chalkie]

so shoot this theory don in flames but, the girl in the space siut was pond's daughter who is a quarter time lord, 3 quarters human, the doctor is the father ...

[SiHart]

Well right now we've got very little evidence to say that you're either wrong or indeed right...

[Perry Vale]

so shoot this theory don in flames but, the girl in the space siut was pond's daughter who is a quarter time lord, 3 quarters human, the doctor is the father ...

Not quite understanding your maths there! Wouldn't that be half/half?

Well, thoroughly enjoyed it yet again, but not as much as last week's. Almost impossible to rate though at the moment, I may have to come back to this thread in October to mark it.

Shame the Doctor couldn't have kept his beard longer, or perhaps it too will return at some later point.

In fact rating this episode is a bit like the viewer panel in the Tardis showing Amy's pregnancy...

[J.R. Southall]

Not quite understanding your maths there! Wouldn't that be half/half?

I think someone's assuming a half-human Doctor ...

[Andrew Curnow]

Just skip this post guys, as it looks like I'm in the moaning minority in that I really didn't enjoy that much at all.

First up, I don't really get how they've gone from not even knowing there's any aliens involved at the end of last week - to being craftily planning to battle them at the start of this week. Maybe it's a bit of writer's sleight of hand, moving the plot along without the audience realising - but it didn't work for me, because I noticed!!

Second, why was the Doctor locked up? I know we all thought the bearded Doctor looked cool in the trail for the new season, and couldn't wait to find out the context.... but there is no context. There's no indication that the Silence are controlling the US government, so he's not being locked up to fool the Silence into thinking he's out of the way (and then, there's also nothing to suggest the Silence consider him a threat they want disposed of) - and then the President pops up anyway (Richard Nixon guest-starring as psychic paper for one week only!) to vouch for him at NASA, etc. So why was he locked up... erm?

Third, how long were they in those body bags for?

Fourth, this business of being all clever with time travel is really starting to bug me now (ie, popping back in time to catch River as she fell out the window).

I can't even be bothered to go on moaning actually - it's probably just my personal taste, but I don't want to see Who become some kind of "Lost" where you have to wait weeks to find out what's going on. I didn't comment much on part one, because I was waiting for the resolution of the story in part two... but we didn't get one did we? I've as many unanswered questions this week as I did last week - more probably!

Then there's the Doctor saying in one scene that he could track Amy down in a moment, but doesn't... then in the next scene he pops up doing that very thing, not because anything has changed but because the end credits are due in about ten minutes time! Not to mention the almost obsessive pacifism that the series has had up to this point seems to be out the window - the Doctor's barely even spoken to one Silence, but appears to know enough to be certain that he should give humanity a post-hypnotic suggestion to wipe them out (and in fact, at the time he started to arrange that suggestion when he was fiddling around in the capsule he hadn't even spoken to the Silence at all).

Ach, take no notice, it's probably just me - at the moment the show's just coming over as too smug, and too pleased at how clever and complex it is, that I'm just struggling to enjoy it.

Sorry (although I did tell you to skip this post anyway!)

[The456]

I agree with a lot of what Andrew Curnow is saying and I've similar thoughts at the tail end of the last series. But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here as it's at the start of the series and clearly is defining the whole 13 episodes. I think it's brilliant, Canton and Pond.... The New Mulder and Scully !! I think (hope) there's some VERY clever writing here. The strange woman who appeared in a door saying "she must be dreaming" !!? The whole series is one massive episode. I thought bad wolf was clever but (I hope) this mkaes my jaw drop.
YES I don't know what the being held prisoner thing was all about but maybe this series is as Dr Song says, "maybe we're travelling in opposite directions"

[Lissa]

I gave it nine out of ten because I liked most of it. The way the Doctor sorts out the Silents was inspired and unexpected. It was very Doctor Who.

But I agree with what's been said above about making the series too complicated and too up its own arse. There is nothing wrong with rewarding loyalty and patience but there comes a time when the show loses the trust of the audience. We get promised answers but just get more questions. Maybe we've reached that point, maybe we haven't but we knew where we were with RTD - 12 weeks of teases and a big unsatisfying mess at the end that gets better over time. Moffat thinks bigger than that and things are strung out for years.

If I thought we'd end the year knowing who the girl was, what the pregnancy means, who River is, who shot the Doctor et cetera then I'd be intrigued. I might not like the answers but I'd still be happy to take the journey. But I'm not convinced we'll find out this year. I think we'll just get more questions.

And what of the children watching this? Do they like being strung along? Have sagas like Harry Potter conditioned children to follow long running stories that reveal themselves a bit at a time over many years? Or are the PS3 generation unable and unwilling to be patient, costing the show its key demographic?

[The456]

This series does make you think, and I really don't understand where the prisoner thing came from, and Canton being the fake bad guy. They spent 3 months trying to work out who or what the silence were but apparently the Dr was chained to a chair for 3 months of beard growth ! Rory managed to get trapped on top of a dam "like you do" and SuperGirl Amy sprinted into the middle of nowhere. You get such disjointed continuity like this that appears to think the audience is aged 10/12 then the real underlying storyline befuddles even the most obsessive 40 year old Dr Who geeks

[chalkie]

I think someone's assuming a half-human Doctor ...

well yes, as revealed by the 8th doctor ( confirmed as canon by the incarnation's appearance in "the 11th hour" ) he is half human on his mother's side ( as was merlin & mr. spock)

[The456]

No wonder we have so much CO2 emissions, we got The Silence here and the bloody Silurians, talk about Neigbours From Hell

[Perry Vale]

well yes, as revealed by the 8th doctor ( confirmed as canon by the incarnation's appearance in "the 11th hour" ) he is half human on his mother's side ( as was merlin & mr. spock)

Sorry, an appearance by any 8th Doctor does not make the TVM itself canon. For exactly the same reasons none of the books or audios are canon either. It simply means there was an 8th Doctor that has the same appearance as McGann. Nothing more, nothing less. Moffat (or anyone else in the future) is quite able to make the TVM canon if he so desires, but as yet no-one has.

His mother was a Timelord, as seen in The End of Time.

[Si Hunt]

My Golly Gosh!

I'll just throw some random thoughts about. But first I'll say that I'm surprised I'm in the minority that I really loved both parts of that (Part 1 more than Part 2 I think) and didn't find it THAT confusing. Or maybe it was that I wasn't expecting to understand ANY of it and got 75% of it so I was happy. Anyway, those thoughts...

1. We never really noticed that big a change, but Rose and the Powell Estate has never seemed so far away. Not just the characters, but the direction, the lighting, the tone, the whole thing. In 2005 Doctor Who felt cosy, accomodating, a bit fluffy. Today, it's never felt further from being a childrens TV program....

2. Which makes the singular thought that there is a kids magazine devoted to this show rather odd now. When it wasn't extremely complicated it was chillingly scary and dark, I'd have thought, for a kid. Which is kind of ok, as anyone 10 when "Rose" aired is now 16, and thus the new show is almost in the same boat as the Hinchcliffe era was - do you keep it the same, and drag in a new generation of kids, or do you try and keep your existing audience and grow up with them? Quite rightly, Doctor Who has once again changed beyond all recognition without us noticing.

3. The notion of the Doctor being shot dead, beyond regeneration, and burned, in his Matt Smith incarnation, has grown on me since two hours ago, when it horrified me. This is something that has been bugging me all week.

Yesterday I sat with the latest DWM in front of me, flicking between an interview with Steven Moffatt promising that "we arn't cheating... one of these characters has drawn their last breath" and the page showing a jolly photo from Episode 2 with all three regulars alive and well (the fourth character, of course, having died already).

Now whichever way you look at it, that means they are lying. This troubled me. (Yes, I know they've lied before but my forgiveness really is on its last thread. Already going into this the characters of Amy and Rory hold no threat because they have each died already; they are "safe" characters. But any more of this, and I'm going to get cross). But not half as troubled as when the Doctor was irrefutably destroyed. What bothered me at first is the thought that the show cannot go on without the Doctor, so they must cheat. Then when I realised it was a future Doctor, it bothered me that we might have seen at the very least Matt Smith's Doctors demise, and they'd just carry on with it in his future. I don't want that "hanging over me". But all that was two hours ago. I'm less bothered now because...

4. That was just great. I found it surprisingly easy to follow. So Amy is pregnant, the child is Amy's - fun twist - the child can regenerate - good question, is it the Doctors? (Oh and a regenerating child - WOW!). The suit has been vacated so anyone might be in it. We don't know who yet. It's all okay.

5. I liked the character of the White House aide. I laughed at him wanting to marry another man. The character of Nixon was played well, and very fun.

6. Swimming pool gag was great!

7. I think with this Doctor Who you just have to hang on tight, expect to be hit in the face, and try and take in what you can. I was pleased I got most of it, and okay with knowing that other bits will come in time. We have to let go of the idea of "Enough of the timey wimey". This is how the show is now - Matt Smith's era will be known as "the timey wimey years", or possibly something more dignified meaning the same. But it's the show's current identity and, you know what, we went 30 years without anything being done with time travel, why the hell not? It's all done so mind-boggingly brilliantly. Someone sat down and wrote this! I'm not convinced that Moffatt is a genius yet, not in the same inspirational way as Russell, but he's certainly very, very clever isn't he? But I have to ask...

8. I'm still not 100% convinced this was the right way to begin the series. It was different, and headline grabbing and maybe that's enough. They hadn't tried this before, so I applaud them having a go. But I think general reaction will be bafflement. Also what I liked was that this was a quantum leap away from your usual fluffy adventure story, and while I also smiled at "...or we could go off and have adventures", it's going to feel like something of a comedown next week, when we have our jolly pirate ship caper. Raising the bar of the opening episode to series finale level may have been a grand aim, but it does mean you then have to step down to something more ordinary the next week. Probably... we haven't seen it yet, so we shouldn't judge. But in principle.

9. Lists of 10 things always wind up running out of steam on Number 9 don't they?

Anyway, I think what won me over is that it feels to last year what "Rose" felt like to "Survival" - like a gigantic step on... in every way. It was different, and if I want the same there is plenty of old stuff out there. I'm not sure if this will capture everyone's attention - we're a world away now from the casual viewer arn't we? But maybe they're right, maybe everyone is a fan now - and I'm not sure it was even for the kids. But for me, it was challenging, scary, clever, witty and not dull. How Mr Moffatt sat and wrote this I'll never know, it was just a thing of perplexing, brain-spinning joy. And that can't be bad.

Si.

[Darren]

9 out of 10

Another brilliant epsiode. Yes there are questions like how the team got to where they were at the start and how they comprehended the presence of The Silence in the first place.

But... such a big difference now in style. This opening two parter has been genuinely scary and dark. It's like watching The Happiness Patrol and then Curse of Fenric ( Happiness Patrol is an extreme metaphor for RTD's style). As I said last week, there is a greater intelligence in the writing, but SM is crediting his viewers with more intelligence.
Someone mentioned being too clever stringing people along with more questions than answers, but there are far more rewards here than with a series like Lost or The Event.

The little girl: What use did the Silence actually have for her? What was with the spacesuit?

And who is the little girl? The Rani? River?

[Perry Vale]

Some interesting thoughts.

Yesterday I sat with the latest DWM in front of me, flicking between an interview with Steven Moffatt promising that "we arn't cheating... one of these characters has drawn their last breath"...<snip>...Now whichever way you look at it, that means they are lying.

Well no, actually. I'm not a reader of DWM any more, and avoided all the tabloids/rumours so had no knowledge of this "someone's going to die" thing. However the way you've worded that makes a possible answer jump straight out at me....River drew her last breath in Forest of the Dead.

We have to let go of the idea of "Enough of the timey wimey". This is how the show is now - Matt Smith's era will be known as "the timey wimey years", or possibly something more dignified meaning the same. But it's the show's current identity and, you know what, we went 30 years without anything being done with time travel, why the hell not?

I definitely have the same opinion as you on this. Why the hell not. Or I suppose they could have a whole era that is solved by "reversing the polarity of the neutron flow"....

[Darren]

Just how are they going to get out of killing the Doctor then?

[Perry Vale]

Just how are they going to get out of killing the Doctor then?

Do you want the short answer or the long one?

Here's the short one....wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey. A 3rd Matt Smith perhaps?

[Si Hunt]

However the way you've worded that makes a possible answer jump straight out at me....River drew her last breath in Forest of the Dead.

I can't remember how he phrased it. But the gist was, one of these characters will die, and we arn't going to wriggle out of it. The episode revealed this character is the Doctor.

You make a good point. But if the character that's died isn't the one shown to have died, and that death is something from a past episode, if that's not a cheat then it's a terrible con. If the promise is gotten out of by a quirk of semantics, then it's an even bigger one!

What I forgot to say earlier is that my other fear is some kind of "future Doctor" or alternate Doctor popping up. That to me would still be a cheat. A character drawing its last breath is not valid if a clone or parallel Universe version appears to take over.

Oh, no that wasn't it again. My fear is that the Doctor IS dead, and that someone takes his place. Either someone played by Matt Smith or someone else, possibly River, takes the title of The Doctor and the show carries on like that. Narratively, that would solve it and ensure they arn't lying. But I wouldn't be happy knowing that the fictional entity of The Doctor was a different being to the one played by Hartnell, Pertwee, Tennant etc. That would bother me, I think.

So yes, they've got to be cheating. Or else something worse. I think I'd rather them cheat than make someone else fictionally take over as the Doctor. I just can't think of how they can resolve this without cheating.

But then, I'm not Steven Moffatt and he is cleverer than me, so it's possible he's thought of something I haven't.

Si.

[brandynigma]

Do you want the short answer or the long one?

Here's the short one....wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey. A 3rd Matt Smith perhaps?

"No, I am the Doctor!"
"No, I'm the Doctor, and so's my wife."
"And this little girl."
"Amy, there's an infinite amount of people outside, all saying they're the Doctor-"
"I've got enough problems, Rory. The stick's gone green? It's supposed to be either blue or pink!"

[Darren]

I really hope the regenerating girl won't take over the lead role. I agree with Si, that wouldn't really be accceptable.

As for ther apparant leap in events since the end of the last episoe, that's probably because of the characters memory loss. Maybe it will be cleared up later.