Rate and Discuss 6.7: A Good Man Goes To War

[Zbigniev Hamson]

That's the second time you've used the term genocide out of context. He does not order genocide, he sets up a situation in which the Silence inadvertently instruct the humans to kill them all on sight. However, that is not genocide because a) he warns the Silence, and b) only the Silence on Earth are under threat. He has not instructed humans to go out and kill all the Silence (which is ture genocide), and has given the Silence a fair chance to save themselves.

He does actually say something about how the humans will spread out across the galaxy and each one of them, even far in the future, will at some point look back and watch the Moon landing. There's definitely a "you will never ever be safe anywhere again" vibe to the threat.

[FlyingBeastie]

That's the second time you've used the term genocide out of context. He does not order genocide, he sets up a situation in which the Silence inadvertently instruct the humans to kill them all on sight. However, that is not genocide because a) he warns the Silence, and b) only the Silence on Earth are under threat. He has not instructed humans to go out and kill all the Silence (which is ture genocide), and has given the Silence a fair chance to save themselves.

How do you know it's not? Doctor certainly believes The Silence have been there since the dawn of time. And how do we know they can even leave Earth? How does he know? Cos I think it was said in that episode that console they have isn't mobile.

And, again, you're not addressing the main point of my argument- why does The Doctor think it's necessary to kill any of them anyway? It's never established. He asks one of them point blank, he says nothing, and that was it.

Gee, I'd hate to be arrested and interrogated by this guy.

He does actually say something about how the humans will spread out across the galaxy and each one of them, even far in the future, will at some point look back and watch the Moon landing. There's definitely a "you will never ever be safe anywhere again" vibe to the threat.

True.

[Jason Thompson]

Did her mom fancy him before she was even born?

Please don't be ridculous.

The Doctor had no idea until the last ten seconds of the episode that River was the baby, and as a time traveller it's always possible he'll see someone he knows as an adult as a baby at some later point in his personal time stream. Rose Tyler, for one....


And I am genuinely curious about this: you seem to be totally down on this series now. lack of investment, low opinion of the actors and the plotting and so on. Why, with that in mind, have a viewing party? It just seems odd to me to have a party centred around something you're pretty sure you won't enjoy.

[Jason Thompson]

He does actually say something about how the humans will spread out across the galaxy and each one of them, even far in the future, will at some point look back and watch the Moon landing. There's definitely a "you will never ever be safe anywhere again" vibe to the threat.

That's a bit different from genocide. With all that in mind, he could have simply not mentioned it to the Silence at all and left them wondering why humans were suddenly turning on them.

[Jason Thompson]

And, again, you're not addressing the main point of my argument- why does The Doctor think it's necessary to kill any of them anyway? It's never established. He asks one of them point blank, he says nothing, and that was it.

I wasn't addressing that, it's true. I think I made that quite clear.

The business about the Doctor's motives is a whole different question, and I agree the inclusion of a bunch of aliens you forget the moment you look away from opened up all sorts of problems. Even if he'd had a lengthy interrogation and had it all explained to him he'd have forgotten it. An excellent idea for an alien threat, but completely impractical for actually dealing with them.

[Awesome Wells]

Did I say I wish they'd brought back Gatiss's episode - or any of the other unrelated stories - back to the first half of the series and ended it after episode six? If I did, I've already forgotten because I'm hungover. But it would have been better, in one's humble. You get the big massive 'We're coming for you, Amy!' climax and then all the build-up of this week's story (fifteen Doctor-less minutes) really sets up the story of what's to come. (I was going to say in my review -but I forgot - that it was almost better to come to the story without having seen the preceding episodes because it jars a bit, that big jump of a few months from the end of The Almost People.) Now, there's going to be a few minutes of Let's Kill BatmanAtTheControls* spent retelling the story. Still, looking forward to it nonetheless.

Oh yeah, and I have to admit, I didn't like the River Song bit at the beginning, either - for exactly the reasons mentioned above by Jason about her swanning in and out of Stormcage as she pleased. It jars; and I'm rather disappointed that she doesn't meet the Doc in a strictly linear way anymore. But that's just me.

*Sorry, I had a 2004 flashback

[Si Hunt]

The idea of the Doctor being known as a great warrior makes good sense, but it is surprising to find a group of humans considering themselves to be at war with him

Although a common trait of our society is the seeming need to build people up to be heroes, only to revel in their subsequent downfall. Ask Cheryl Cole. So if you had a hero that saved EVERYONE, a mythical "Superman" who everyone loved... well, it doesn't need a great leap to see that a group would rise who HATED him. Well, quite clearly he's arrogant isn't he? That Doctor. He must just LOVE himself. Saving us all the time. I bet he's got his own agenda. I bet he's really laughing at us. I bet...

Anyway. The episode itself was good. I enjoyed it, and we got some much needed explanations; it was funny and satisfying to find Amy and Rory asking questions that had been posed on-line for months. The re-introduction of old costumes was reminscent of, but slightly more justified, than last year. Why wasn't Jack summoned up to fight in the Doctors army though?

Again, the team seem to have a slight issue with pacing. The music should have crashed in as Amy said "And he's on his way!" but it lingered on for about five minutes more. The start was a little dull and didn't really get anywhere, with a load of faceless soldiers emoting for minutes on end. Like many others, I thought the Sontaran Nurse was an excellent character, and broadened the scope of the race considerably.

The final "revelation" we'd guessed. Maybe being a fan ruined it, but I think it was too obvious. They'd kissed, so it was obviously a bit dicey her turning out to be a direct relative. Given Amy and Rory's mysterious future child had been hanging around, it wasn't too hard to guess. Maybe better if she'd been someone a little more convoluted? Still, Moffat is right, the beauty in the "end" is that it opens up a whole new load of storyline opportunities. What happens to the child now? When does she become estranged from Amy and Rory? Does the fact she is named after Pond and not Williams mean Amy and Rory split up at some point? Also now we know River can regenerate, I wonder why she didn't at the end of "Forest of the Dead"? Maybe the Alex Kingston river is the final incarnation? Or maybe she can only regenerate once?

I also thought Glynis Barber was excellent, and surely she has to come back as we still don't really know who she is.

The biggest thing working against this episode was, once more, the unwelcome amount of hype heaped upon it by the production team. Just as storyline twists arn't always "spoilers", a revelation is not the same as a Cliffhanger, unless your idea of an epic Doctor Who cliffhanger is the Doctor sauntering away happily in the TARDIS to look for a child he knows will be safe? Why call it a cliffhanger at all, let alone a "game changing" one. At every stage this half-season, I've been underwealmed by the big surprises, because Moffat has told me beforehand that they will be even better than they are. Also no shock or surprise has been unsignposted; it's been the equivilent of someone sitting at your shoulder the whole time and saying "Oh, you'll absolutely love this bit it's the best thing EVER". Simon was very disgruntled to open DWM the other day and even have the presence of the Sontarans and Silurians ruined by a big picture.

So anyway. Good episode, moved things on, maybe not an epic finale but then we're only at the mid-season point. I'm a little worried again about that pesky relocated Pirate episode. I really hope Amy won't be "okay" with the fact that her baby is missing and be happy to have swashbuckling adventures while they wait for her to turn up.

Si.

[FlyingBeastie]

And I am genuinely curious about this: you seem to be totally down on this series now. lack of investment, low opinion of the actors and the plotting and so on. Why, with that in mind, have a viewing party? It just seems odd to me to have a party centred around something you're pretty sure you won't enjoy.

We all went to see X-Men together and since we all watch DW we decided to go back to one of the houses after the film and watch the finale. Simple as that. Not the typical viewing party, I suppose I wasn't clear on that.

And I'm just being critical that's all. Like I said before, I express my fandom differently.

[Paul Monk]

I'm going to ignore last few pages worth ofr debate and just say that was superb. Really epic but also oddly unsettling especially the Doctor calling in debts. Loved the idea of the Silurian in Victorian times, it almost warrants a spin off series of its own.
I loved the Sontaran Nurse. How cool was he and a brilliant reflection of Rory's character. Here we have a warrior forced into being a nurse and in Rory we have a nurse forced into being a warrior! And speaking of Rory it was great to see him kick some butt. Arthur Davill as I've said before has been superb in the series. And The Doctor was brilliant. The same person we've had all season but with a disturbing edge. The best bit of all is that I think I have an idea of what actually happens in the first two episodes now, where this is all leading and the Doctor dashing off at the end is him setting things up for that. As someone said earlier, the line where he says perhaps he needs to give up, is very significant.
This certainly is the Doctor's darkest day and not because he's at his darkest!
Oh and I loved the appearance of Danny Boy and the pirates as well. Some small daft cameos that made me smile.
So its a 9 from me, only because like Dave, I found it went a bit flat at the end.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

I also thought Glynis Barber was excellent, and surely she has to come back as we still don't really know who she is.

I must have missed her appearence

[Jason Thompson]

We all went to see X-Men together and since we all watch DW we decided to go back to one of the houses after the film and watch the finale. Simple as that. Not the typical viewing party, I suppose I wasn't clear on that.

And I'm just being critical that's all. Like I said before, I express my fandom differently.

Fair enough. As I said, I was just curious.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

We all went to see X-Men together and since we all watch DW we decided to go back to one of the houses after the film and watch the finale.

All but one surely...

[FlyingBeastie]

All but one surely...

Yeah, he just sort of turned up randomly

Still, thanks to Joe and the mysterious child seats (that looked like small tubs you put your keys and metallic possessions in at the airport) he got from god knows where he was able to hold our seats towards the front of the theater.

So I'm not complaining

[Alex]

Right, quick review - loved it, loved it, loved it! 9.5/10

I can understand a little while others might not have praised it quite so much, and I think it ultimately comes down from what you want and expect from the series, or at least one of the "Big" episodes like this. For me, I want it to be a massive forty five minute thrillride which leaves me on a high, with a massive grin on my face. With lots of cool set pieces, some lovely surprises (bar, perhaps, the River reveal, but I thought it was still brilliantly done), delicious dialogue and a breakneck pace. Throw in characters you love, and truly excellent acting from the lead, and you've got a programme that I massively enjoyed.

As for various comments so far...

I never listened to any hype, I never read anything at all about this series, as I may have mentioned in another thread, and it paid off in spades.

This was the first year I managed to do the same, and think I massively benefitted from it too. I wasn't expecting a massive cliffhanger to this, didn't know about upcoming villains, or even read speculation threads as I wanted to go in to each new episode completely fresh, and I'm so glad I did.

Doctor Who will return in Let's Kill Hitler! Excellent!!!!!!!

Indeed!

Apart from me being wrong on the whole "rape" thing...

Aw, Beastie, you know how much I love you in real life, but...well...and I'm only offering an opposing view here...but doesn't that go to show how second guessing a writers' intentions is sometimes the wrong thing to do? I feel it definitely coloured your view of the episode, and saw how appalled you were by the concept, but then it wasn't the case in the slightest. Maybe that way you might enjoy the series more, anyhow...

...I can safely say "I told you so" to everyone who was arguing with me about the fact how Steven Moffat isn't as clever as he makes himself out to be and is actually just making things more complicated for the sake of making them so.

I disagree again, completely. Sorry! (Can you tell I'm slightly frightened of bringing out your Dominican side? ) I think Moffat's had this all planned out from the moment he invented River Song (and indeed Awesome Well's link to that google discussion page suggests it's been a lot lot longer) and has handled the whole idea absolutely brilliantly!

I guess it comes down to your view on River, but I love the character, and how whilst it was ultimately designed as a weapon against the Doctor, the final moments of the episode suggest it will indeed become his salvation! And if that's not brilliant, I don't know what is!

Haven't got the time to respond to all of your comments, but I'll try and do a few (and this is only to try and persuade you to give the series a second chance, in the hope you might enjoy it more. 'Cause I'm nice like that! )

2. What was the point of the opening? People were complaining on the other thread of RTD spending big bucks on the whole "Galifrey Citadel" effect- wonder why they're not complaining about this opening sequence with Rory on the Cybermen ship. Why was this important? Why did the Cybers know anything about the cleric having Amy? Did they even know? Has Moffat forgotten that Cybermen aren't robots but actually cyborg beings and he has just written (yet again) that The Doctor has committed genocide for NO REASON?

I thought the opening was just so cool, and fun! And there's nowt wrong with fun, I tell you. As for Rory on the Cybermen fleet, it shows a) He's now in kick ass mode and a serious force to be recognised, b) the extent the Doctor is prepared to go to get Amy back, c) It's mentioned how big their fleet is, and how they're aware of everything that goes on in that sector of the Universe, d) Well this is the point of the whole episode, and indeed new season. As River commented, look how far the Doctor has come, how much he has changed. And how he may at times cross a line. Break a rule. Tennant's final series followed this theme, and perhaps we all expected that to be resolved with Smith as the Doctor, but it's clear that's not the case. Which is the point of River, and her being his redemption.

4. Yet again, there's been no real tone or stakes set for River being in the Stormcage...

You're second guessing again lass We know there's more of River's story to come, including who she killed, so give Moffat a chance. It also served to show that her relationship with the Doctor has developed too (loved the Stevie Wonder joke btw!) and so was extremely important in that sense.

8. Yet again we have an episode where Moffat shoehorns a bunch of familiar aliens to come together- only this time they help The Doctor! ::LAME::

Or Brilliant! I loved the Silurian and her lover, and the hints of past adventures that the Doctor has had with the other characters. It hints of all the untold stories that we can imagine ourselves. Plus it looked cool! And again, there's nothing wrong with that!

12. So who's the big bad again? Why did the TARDIS explode at the end of "Pandorica Opens"? Why hasn't The Doctor been concerned with this or who sent him the letter in IA?

Still to come! It's a 13 part series! Have faith! After all, Moffat isn't the pro rape fan you accused him of being! (I so know I'm trouble for this one!)

13. I'd talk about the Silence, but I know someone's just gonna tell me to wait for the latter half of the season.

Aye! Me!

14. Again- as I've mentioned before- Moffat makes things more complicated to make them more complicated- HOW HARD IS IT TO STEAL A BABY FROM A PREGNANT WOMAN??? I mean, REALLY??

Why go through the effort? Why be so obvious about it?

Y'know, had The Ponds stayed behind on Earth after the Xmas episode and had the baby, they would've been pretty susceptible to just about anyone. So why didn't they just snatch the kid then?

In fact, they could've gotten away with planting a ganger baby and the Ponds would've never known the difference. The Doctor certainly wouldn't know what was up... I mean, if you're so intent on getting back at The Doctor, don't you think the element of "SURPRISE" would be the best tactic with which to carry out your plan?

Cos they even say in the episode the whole "Timelord" gene and conception happened on the Ponds wedding night. And Amy was abducted even before America...

Soo... see what I mean about Moffat wasting everyone's time?

Because they needed a lot of time to alter the unborn foetus to become the weapon it was whilst it was inside Amy. Hence why they needed to abduct Amy so long ago. Pay attention Beastie! :P

16. Anyone else getting a creepy pedo vibe now about the whole Doctor/River thing? I mean, would anyone else bone someone they carried in their hand as a baby?

Yeah, um, so not with you there. Infact I do feel like you might slightly be looking for things to get annoyed about - I mean he did meet River years ago, and has been romancing her a while now (though largely off screen, it seems), long before he knew she was Amy's child.

And at this point, I understand what Alex meant about not feeling so strongly cos he's not so ultimately invested in the series. Cos I've now taken on that same attitude, because my expectations for anything Moffat takes a part in are below the floor.

I think this does definitely help. I mean one year on, and my Sister and I still can't talk about Lost without spitting on the floor at the mere mention of it's name, even when we're in the house I love Who when it's at it's best, but as certain episodes in my opinion have been pretty shoddy at times (and there's two dreadful ones imho!) I just hope for the best, and am not too surprised if it doesn't work out for me. Luckily for me I really enjoy what Moffat's doing, so this year is working out really well for me - indeed, bar the pirate episode I've enjoyed every minute, and it could turn out to be the best season so far.

The episode was an exciting adventure and I loved it.

Exactly. Some episodes benefit from having more depth (Father's Day, for instance) but I love who when it's just a crazy rollercoaster ride, and don't see anything wrong with that at times.

I didn't buy it. We actually had a viewing party for this one and no one was convinced that Smith was at all menacing or lethal.

I thought his flash of anger in the control room with eyepatch lady was an astonishing piece of acting, especially his shocked and emotive response to it. I feel it's such an important moment too, as it highlights River's warning of what he could become, what the words The Doctor might one day represent, and why her appearance at the end is such an important moment for the entire series to come.

What a nice man.

But again, that's the whole point of it, and why River couldn't become involved before the moment she did. She knew his potential, what he might become, and couldn't stop in until exactly the right moment where he might be able to accept that she may be right. And fortunately, but the look of it, it worked...

So I don't buy this whole genocide/murderous rampage angle cos there hasn't been any development for this Doctor to make me believe it. It's literally come out of nowhere.

I couldn't disagree more. In some ways, the entire new series has been about the effect of the Time War on the Doctor, but also the traumatic things he's had to see and do since then to save as many as he could. He's lost so many people - including his race for a second time last year, and other loved ones And this time, with Amy and her child in danger, he began crossing lines - including the Cyberfleet genocide - which is why it was time for River to intervene.

This really just goes back to the fact Moffat has somehow lost his knack for strong characterization.

I just don't see that at all. The opposite infact. These characters are growing and changing due to the events taking place around them, just as they did in the RTD era.

His ego has become his Achilles Heel.

Indeed! And I find it a fascinating theme to explore...

Anyway, I've rambled enough for now, and I'm sure you all get the gist of my argument and then some! Sorry that so many points are yours Beastie btw, but they're the ones I've disagreed with the most...

[Darren]

2 out of 10

A non story really, it was something I'd expect from George Lucas if he ever took over. I expect far more from Steven Moffat after excelling at the odd episode during RTD's years.

Why make Rory dress as a centurion? Why not just materialise, grab Amy and go? So River is the daughter of Amy and Rory- slightly under whelming; and why did the Doctor go all funny? " Did we <kissing noises> "What's that got to do with it? All that build up.

Arrogant trash.

[Perry Vale]

I strongly suspect that most of the people voting 10 or 9 or even 8 for this will probably quietly regret doing so in the days and months ahead

Quite possibly. I wish I could go back and rescore the majority of the RTD era now, as what's come since has made me realise how charitable I was on most of them.

[Paul Monk]

Why make Rory dress as a centurion?

Because the Doctor is invoking Rory's stint as the last centurian, which mythically holds more power than Rory the nurse. Its symbolic. Rory says its the Doctor's idea and it gives the Doctor's army one more powerful emblematic figure. It also gives Rory the strength to do what he needs to do to get his wife back. In fact a large theme of the episode was the mythical status of characters from the Monk's to Rory to The Doctor himself.

Why not just materialise, grab Amy and go?

Because the Doctor's ego is getting the better of him. He can't just sneak in, he was to make a big thing of it all to prove he lives up to the stories about him. Its this attitude that makes it the Doctor's darkest day and possibly sets him on the road to a dark, nasty fate.

[Si Hunt]

If I had to re-assess my RTD era scores, I'd bump them all up. They've stood the test of time!

Why make Rory dress as a centurion? Why not just materialise, grab Amy and go? So River is the daughter of Amy and Rory- slightly under whelming; and why did the Doctor go all funny? " Did we <kissing noises> "What's that got to do with it? All that build up

I must admit it was very odd the way Rory was dressed as a Centurion for no reason. And I hadn't thought of why the Doctor didn't just grab Amy, but it's a good point! Though with the kissing thing, the reason was, of course, that the Doctor had just realised he'd kissed Amy and Rory's daughter... hence the "Oh God, am I in trouble?" look. I thought it was rather sweet how he only implied a kiss, which we have seen. Ditto the way it's been sort of suggested through body language that the Doctor and River are romantically linked, but we haven't really seen it stated; the Doctors never said "I'm in a relationship" or called River his girlfriend or "The wife" or anything; he's never angsted over the relationship or where it's going. In short, it's left up to the viewer to decide, and not rammed down our throats to annoys us, which makes a nice change.

One thing no-one has said, is that Amy is said to have been copied as the Flesh BEFORE America. So does that mean this Amy hasn't seen the Doctor die? But Rory has? Has he told her? Or is she linked to her Flesh double such that she knows everything that happened to it?

At the start of the season, Amy knew the Doctor was going to die but he didn't. As things may now have panned out, it's now the reverse.

Si.

[Paul Monk]

I must admit it was very odd the way Rory was dressed as a Centurion for no reason. And I hadn't thought of why the Doctor didn't just grab Amy, but it's a good point!

See my above post!

One thing no-one has said, is that Amy is said to have been copied as the Flesh BEFORE America. So does that mean this Amy hasn't seen the Doctor die? But Rory has? Has he told her? Or is she linked to her Flesh double such that she knows everything that happened to it?

I assumed the latter. The real Amy felt everything that happened to the flesh Amy.

[Logo Polish]

I also thought Glynis Barber was excellent, and surely she has to come back as we still don't really know who she is.

She's Soolin. Frances Barber seemed to be playing a cross between Travis and Servalan though.

[Paul Monk]

Oh Travis!

[Si Hunt]

Oh Prime.

Si.

[Alex]

The real Amy felt everything that happened to the flesh Amy.

Indeed, the Doctor specifically stated that. Come on folks, pay attention!

[Wayne]

Ok that's it. I give up.
I don't even know where to start with why that was just such.... tat.
All the stuff that Alex listed as good things would be on my list of reasons why i can't stand to go on any longer.

Smith, get out whilst you still can!

[Anthony Williams]

Why did I think this was utter shite?

1. Massacring the Cybermen. Yes, this is probably the most commented thing. But there was no need for it. It was simply there to establish "just how pissed the Doctor is"(tm). It was extremely out of character (especially since they were entirely unrelated to the whole kidnapping of Amy and Melody thing) and just plain unnecessary.

2. Oh look, let's get Sontarans, Judoon, Silurians and Cybermen on screen together. RTD's way of making things "epic" (and I use that in the traditional way, rather than the modern usage) was to destroy the universe. Moffat's is to raid the costume cupboard. Yawn.

3. River Song constantly waltzing in and out of Stormcage. You'd think that they'd either improve their security or move her to a different facility. Makes a mockery of the whole thing.

4. After centuries of helping humanity, and heck... it's even been established that the Clerics work with the Doctor (in Flesh and Stone), so why are they trying to kill him here?

5. In fact, what's the point in bringing in the Headless Monks? Madame Kovarian said that the whole thing was a massive deception. But they'd already replaced Melody with a flesh avatar. The Doctor had already had his battle and was convinced that he'd won with a bloodless struggle. So, why bring in the Headless Monks and kill a load of people? It's essentially padding and thus bad plotting.

6. River Song. Again. [sarcasm]Because NONE of us saw that coming[/sarcasm]. I suppose Steven Moffat will continue telling us that we're wrong to think that the "good man" that she killed wasn't as simple as The Doctor. And then reveal it to be her in that Spacesuit in The Impossible Astronaut. Yes, this is a guess. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised at all.

7. Was that really a game-changing cliffhanger? I mean, honestly. It was hyped up SO much, and then it was just nothing.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Steven Moffat: