Legendary Timeless God-Warrior etc

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Do you think it would ever be possible for the Doctor to ever revert to simply just being some (admittedly intelligent and compassionate and resourceful) bloke who wanders around having adventures and trying to help people that he meets? It's been hammered into us so many times now since 2005 that he is this almost messianic figure who can bring down empires with a single word, who can stand before massed armies with impunity, knowing full well that he can't die simply because he is THE DOCTOR (you know, in precisely the sort of way that he never did in the first 26 years of the series), that is this now the only way we can think of him?

If some other showrunner comes along in a couple of years and wanted to go back to him just being a bloke who's as non-legendary and vulnerable as the rest of us, but who does the brave things anyway, could he even manage it? Would the kids of today even see him as the same person? Or has the damage* been done?





*if you see it that way.

[SiHart]

It's going to be difficult to step back from this I think. For me it's been one of the most disappointing things about the post 2005 series really. I liked the idea of a Doctor who just arrives and makes things better, rather than him being a legendary figure throughout the universe. It takes something special about the character away I think. I never liked it much when they started it all off in the NAs and it doesn't sit quite right with me. It's just lead to all those ridiculous speeches where he's like fire and ice and jam and salt and burns though the stars like a comet stuff that's just silly myth building.

However, I have a feeling that Steven Moffat is going to confront this in the rest of the season later in the year. I have a feeling this is what was set up last night. Maybe we won't ever get back to the Doctor being an innocent traveller in time and space again, but we might perhaps get a stop to the mythologizing of him.

[Andrew Curnow]

Actually, I think yes it would be perfectly possible. Agreed they have kept on bleating about him being this legendary figure since the show came back, but not in every story, and in the stories inbetween (Fear Her or Planet of the Ood or The Long Game or Vincent and the Doctor, etc, etc) he has just been a traveller. So I think the way to do it would just, to stop writing him all these legendary moments and just have him arrive somewhere and end up getting involved.

[FlyingBeastie]

Just as Moffat has gone and sculpted his own universe (I mentioned before he barely brings up the Time war) I think that particular showrunner you're describing could pull it off.

With a new Doctor you have a tabula rossa of sorts, and with a new showrunner a different universe as well. I mean, didn't Moffat want series 5 to be called series 1 so as to distance himself from the RTD era?

So long as the stories are excellent and there are clear stakes and gravitas added I think it's possible to have that kind of Doctor return and the viewers accept that kind of formula.

[J.R. Southall]

I have a feeling this is what was set up last night.

Exactly what I was thinking through most of the episode - this is where Steven Moffat resets the idea of the Doctor as "Legend". Whether or not he will, who can say?

A regeneration is a very simple and easy place to reset the Doctor, though; he needn't even start afresh with all his memories intact. I'd like one incarnation to begin not knowing who even the Daleks are, for instance, and have to find everything out again. Certainly this Godlike figure (one of my very few bugbears with RTD) could be gone in an instant.

[Andrew Curnow]

Hmm, I know Moffat said in DWM about sort of finishing off this 'Doctor as legend' idea, but... if he didn't like it, why do it? As you say JR, the perfect place to start afresh is (ie, was) with a new Doctor - Moffat could have done that last year.

Maybe, without being rude, his problem is that he can't concoct a way of having a BIG season finale without it involving the Doctor being a bit player on the universal stage - last year's in particular depended on the idea that all these many alien races knew of the Doctor.

[Andrew Curnow]

(I mentioned before he barely brings up the Time war)

I'm pleased about that, personally, I think we've really gone as far into that as we need haven't we?

[SiHart]

Then perhaps he needs to do away with the idea of the big season finale and just get on with telling good stories.

[Jason Thompson]

Hmm, I know Moffat said in DWM about sort of finishing off this 'Doctor as legend' idea, but... if he didn't like it, why do it?

Maybe he thought it would be better if the character actually went through some trauma and had it all brought home to him and developed as a character rather than just resetting him with a convenient regeneration.

It seems to be quite common these days to see the Ninth Doctor described as a tortured soul with survivor's guilt over the Time War, while the Tenth Doctor has a bit more joie de vivre about him, as if that change is the result of the regeneration. It's not. The Ninth develops during his time with Rose and comes to terms with a lot of it before he regenerates, particularly at the end of Dalek.

Regeneration is a brilliant, genius idea to keep the show going after the lead wants to move on and to keep the show fresh. I think using it as a cop-out way of completely re-writing the character rather than have the character properly develop would be a bit weak, frankly.

I think it's perfectly possible to have him return to the wandering traveller who just happens to get involved with things, but it would be a massive wrench if it were to suddenly happen right as he regenerates.

The events this season seem to be heading towards making him really realise what he has become and perhaps could be heading down that route of at least making him rather less enthusiastic about his status as a legend.

[Jason Thompson]

last year's in particular depended on the idea that all these many alien races knew of the Doctor.

I think that idea is absolutely fine. When you have recurring monsters in the series, the idea that they wouldn't know of him becomes incredibly unlikely. The Daleks and Cybermen certainly would, and the Sontarans. The Nestenes have had three invasion attempts foiled by him now so they ought to have some idea of him too. And so on. The idea that absolutely everyone in the Universe now seems to know of him is stretching it a bit, though.

[Jon Masters]

I think he should retire to a cave on Titan and live a simple contemplative life as a hermit.

[Andrew Curnow]

For ten days perhaps? Or ten years...

[Lissa]

Surely the Seventh Doctor started this on TV with seasons 25 and 26. He was "so much more than just another Time Lord". RTD was just building on the Cartmel Masterplan. It was the late 80s that turned the Doctor from a traveller into a legend/god/avenging scourge not the 2005 revival.

[Rob McCow]

RTD was just building on the Cartmel Masterplan.

SssshHHH! Don't say that, HE might be listening! It's bad enough that they had him on Newsnight to explain why the BBC was so left wing and anti-Thatcher...

[Perry Vale]

I agree with Lissa, especially after watching Sylver Nemesis the other night.

Let's hope we don't see any chess sets in 'Let's Kill Hitler'...

[egdcltd]

Perhaps Amy's baby isn't going to be used as a weapon against the Doctor himself, but as a weapon against the legend of the Doctor? It's been mentioned more than a few times recently that history can be rewritten, maybe that's what the baby is for?

[Zbigniev Hamson]

The 7th Doctor certainly became a bit manipulative (but only really in 2 or 3 stories, let's not let the New Adventures colour anyone's judgement), but there was never anything about him becoming a legend throughout all time, or a God. Regardless of what Cartmell's big plan was in his head, not much of it ever made it to the screen, and JNT probably wouldn't have allowed most of it to anyway.

[Lissa]

The 11th Doctor is only a god and a legend in a few stories. Most of the time he turns up and bluffs people into believing he's whatever the psychic paper says he is because they have never heard of the Doctor. The 7th Doctor may not have been as godly as the 11th in those stories where he was more than just a Time Lord but the descent into grandeur began on TV in 1988 and was not an invention of either the New Adventures or Russell Tiberius Davies.

[J.R. Southall]

Yes, "more than just a Time Lord"/manipulation of people/events turns up in Remembrance, Silver Nemesis, Battlefield, Ghost Light and Fenric! The NAs had a lot to work from!

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Maybe, but I just don't see how manipulating your enemies into destroying themselves, or finding out that one day you'll be Merlin in an alternate universe, has much to do with being a legendary God throughout time. "More than just a Timelord" doesn't really mean anything, it might just mean he's also a member of Bromley Municipal Library or something. Or just an outright lie for that matter.

[Perry Vale]

I can't see anywhere that the new series has made him a 'legendary god' (apart from perhaps TLotTL). Legendary, yes, but not a god.

Sylver Nemesis is quite clearly saying he's god though, as confirmed by Kevin Clarke in the documentary.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

I really meant god as in "messianic figure" really, such as when Martha gets the whole world to chant his name so he can float across the room and lay hands on the Master, or those other couple of occasions when everyone's had to phone him all at once or think his name in some sort of prayer fashion. And I also meant it in the way that he stands before people and tells them how all-powerful he is and tells them to run, or not put him in a trap because he'll destroy the universe etc. I didn't mean an actual deity as such.

And again, I'd have to disagree about Silver Nemesis. Yes, Kevin Clarke had that in mind as he wrote it, but there's really nothing on screen that indicates anything other than he's hiding some secret about his identity.

[Si Hunt]

Legendary, yes, but not a god.

Except at the end of Season 3 where he was ressurected from death in a glowing halo of light as the entire planet chanted his name, and rose up in the air to exact justice on his persecutor.

Si.

[Perry Vale]

Which is what I'd said in the previous sentence.

[Si Hunt]

Yes but I don't read til the end of the posts some of the time.

Si.