The Tottenham Riot

[Si Hunt]

Surely they are employed to be leaders? And despite the modern communications age, you can't lead very well if you on a beach in the Maldives.

We haven't had any statements for Boris or Dave via the wonders of technology from their holiday homes that apparently make it "just as easy for them to do their job from there as here". We haven't seen them skyping messages of support and reassurance to Londoners, telling them - us - what is being done to curb this and giving us some hope that maybe we'll be safe tonight. Maybe if they had of done there wouldn't be such calls for them to come back here so they can tell us what they're going to do about the fact that our country is in the hands of riotters and anarachists.

There's an emergency meeting of Cobra (which may be another useless debating group which happens to have a rather macho name) this morning, presumably he couldn't attend that from his villa. Why didn't they have this meeting yesterday? Three nights of violence it's been, and they're only just having a meeting about it.

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

But once the riots are happening they have to do something. Imagine the public outcry if they didn't go in because 'once the rioters see the police they have someone to be angry at'. Not that long ago people were complaining about a lack of police presence on the streets, because seeing the bobby on the beat makes people feel secure and is a visual indication that law and order is being protected. Now you're suggesting that the sight of the police is having the opposite effect.

The rioters and looters have crossed the line. Bollocks to psychology and subtlety, they need rounding up and sorting out. The police have a difficult job to do. They have to be seen to protect law and order but not to be excessive in their execution of the role. However, what do the people whose homes and businesses have been ransacked, who now have no jobs to go to because their place of employment is in flames, whose livelihoods have been destroyed, whose cars have been destroyed, and who are cowering in their homes because they fear to go outside, think when they see a group of looters causing all this havoc and the police standing hundreds of yards down the road not actually making any effort to stop them?

At the moment these looters think they can do what they like because the police are too afraid of a media backlash for brutality if they go in and tackle things properly. That attitude has to be stamped on.

[Si Hunt]

I agree with the above!

That's sort of what I meant earlier. These people have proved that they arn't interested in justice, just violence for its own sake, so it's time to stop listening to them, being so soft and being afraid to dare risk injurying one of them in case he sues for compensation, and get tough. This just wouldn't happen abroad. We've slowly moved to being dictated to by the thug on the street, and now the voice of the spoilt child is doing exactly what it likes. We have to have law, and we have to have discipline. If people act like they are in a lawless society, we have to use force to show them that there is consequence. Get the army in, get the hoses and the tear gas out! Only by making it unpleasant, not fun, to riot will people learn that they can't do it.

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

Exactly. Prevention of crime requires an effective deterrent. Police watching from the sidelines and occasionally running at you, while in the meantime you get your (albeit masked) mug on the TV and internet, is not even close to being a deterrent.

[SiHart]

Oh right, yes, because sending in the army in Northern Ireland had such a posiutive effect on breaking up the riots.

I agree we need to do something to stop this, but I don't think sending in troops is the answer. All that will do is exacerbate the situation.

It's just odd that the Police could kettle the students when they protested a few months ago, but can't act so decisively this time round...

[Si Hunt]

Parliment are being recalled from their long summer break the day after tomorrow to have a chat about things.

Si.

[Si Hunt]

All police leave is cancelled! Poor old policemen.

Big Dave is talking now. He says if you are doing this, you are very behaving very badly indeed.

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

It's just odd that the Police could kettle the students when they protested a few months ago, but can't act so decisively this time round...

And with all the outcry about their kettling tactics that time round, why do you think they might be reluctant to try it this time?

Whatever they do, some media, for the sake of higher sales or ratings, will make a big deal out of how wrong it was. Last time there were riots they kettled them and that was wrong. This time they are keeping their distance and that's wrong. What can they do when the officers making up their ranks are so fearful of being suspended during investigations into their actions? The police force has been paralysed by the mentality among the populace that somehow they should be able to do their jobs with wagging fingers and stern words, and anything else is just too much.

We have become so obsessed in this country with the rights of the individual we have lost sight of the fact that there are times when individuals forfeit those rights. These rioters have lost their right to complain if they get hurt during police action to stop their rampage, and they never had the right to behave as they have been in the first place.

[Rob McCow]

Poor old policemen.

Fair enough, but would you like to work a 7pm to 7am shift five nights a week and have your holiday cancelled?

[WhiteCrowNZ]

I really don't like the idea of using the army at all. The role of the army should be as much as possible the protection of the country from threats overseas. There's something vulgar when any Government uses it's own army against it's own people. Weren't we berating Libya just a few months ago for doing exactly that when its people rebelled?

[SiHart]

And with all the outcry about their kettling tactics that time round, why do you think they might be reluctant to try it this time?

yes, but surely this is a different situation, and the action would be appropriate?

[Jason Thompson]

Weren't we berating Libya just a few months ago for doing exactly that when its people rebelled?

No, we berated Libya for using the army to shoot protesters. It was the use of lethal force, not the armed forces per se that sparked international outrage.

We're not talking about sending in soliders with guns to mow down the rioters here, we're talking about using the army to bulk up the police force and bring in vehicles and equipment to help contain the rioters. There's a whole world of difference.

The suggestion of using the army is an eminently sensible one. We're not talking about the army as an armed force using guns and grenades, we're talking about the army as a unit of people trained to handle public order offences. Getting in more people who are trained in dealing with such things can only be good.

I can only think that the reluctance to use the army from some quarters is purely because of this image of them as soldiers with guns who are used in military conflicts. They have other uses, and their defending this country should not be restricted to outside attacks.

[Si Hunt]

Fair enough, but would you like to work a 7pm to 7am shift five nights a week and have your holiday cancelled?

I wasn't being sarcastic. I really do pity the police at this time. They are working so hard and fearlessly.

Si.

[Si Hunt]

We use the army when the firemen go on strike.

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

yes, but surely this is a different situation, and the action would be appropriate?

I agree. But I repeat: with media accusations of brutality and so on so prominent in recent months, and sparking huge reviews of their practices, the police are paralysed. Just at the moment they can't do anything right, it seems.

[SiHart]

Yes, that's certainly true.

[Rob McCow]

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Sorry Si! Classic mis-reading there.

[SiHart]

From the BBC:

Parliament is being recalled on Thursday in response to rioting in England, the Prime Minister has said.

The government's emergency committee Cobra met on Tuesday after rioting spread across London, with violence flaring in other major cities.

"We will do everything necessary to restore order to Britain's streets and make them safe for the law-abiding," the PM said outside Downing Street.

More than 16,000 officers will be on London streets on Wednesday, he said.

At least 450 people have been arrested so far, Mr Cameron said.

He told rioters, "you will feel the full force of the law", and said people should "stand together in condemnation of these crimes".

The prime minister returned early from his holiday to discuss the unrest, which first flared on Saturday after a peaceful protest in Tottenham over the fatal shooting of a man by police.

London has seen a wave of "copycat criminal activity" over the past three days, the Met Police said. More than 69 people have been charged with various offences following hundreds of arrests.

David Cameron described the scenes of violence as "sickening" Birmingham, Liverpool, Nottingham and Bristol are among the other cities to have seen violence.

Met Deputy Assistant Commissioner Steven Kavanagh said it was a "shocking and appalling morning for London to wake up to".

"The Met was stretched beyond belief in a way that it has never experienced before," he told BBC Breakfast.

Acting Commissioner Tim Godwin ruled out bringing in the Army to help police tackle the violence, but said: "We will be out there in ever greater numbers tonight."

In other developments:

Three people are being questioned on suspicion of attempted murder after a police officer was injured by a car in Wembley, north-west London, while trying to stop suspected looters.
Tube stations in the capital that were closed following the riots have now reopened, apart from Ealing Broadway
The Tramlink service between East Croydon and Wandle Park has been suspended as a result of the fire at Reeves Corner
Elsewhere, 100 people have been arrested in Birmingham after scores of youths rampaged through the shopping area, smashing windows and looting from shops
West Midlands Police said a police station in Holyhead Road in Handsworth, Birmingham, was set on fire
There were reports of cars being damaged in Manchester and of up to 200 youths with masks roaming through Toxteth in Liverpool
Police in Bristol said they were dealing with outbreaks of disorder involving about 150 people
Nottinghamshire Police said a police station was attacked in the St Ann's area and 200 tyres were set alight in the street
"Small pockets of disorder" were dealt with by police in the Chapeltown area of Leeds overnight
Met commander Christine Jones said the violence was "simply inexcusable" Monday's violence started in Hackney after a man was stopped and searched by police but nothing was found.

Groups of people began attacking the police in Hackney at about 16:20 BST, throwing stones and a bin at officers.

Police cars were smashed by youths armed with wooden poles and metal bars. Looters also smashed their way into shops before being dispersed by police.

Nine police forces from other parts of the country have assisted in providing support to the capital city, as well as the City of London Police and British Transport Police.

However, eyewitnesses have reported that as trouble spread across the city, there were often few police officers around when violence flared.


Several fires broke out in Croydon, including one at a large sofa factory which spread to neighbouring buildings and tram lines
Police found a 26-year-old man in a car in Croydon suffering from gunshot wounds. He is in a serious condition in hospital
In Hackney 200 riot officers with dogs and mounted police were located around Mare Street where police cars were damaged
The area's MP, Diane Abbott, said a London-wide curfew should be considered
Looters raided a Debenhams store and a row of shops in Lavender Hill in Clapham, as well as shops in Stratford High Street
Police used armoured vehicles to push back more than 150 people in the Lavender Hill area
A Sony warehouse in Solar Way, Enfield, a shopping centre in Woolwich New Road, a timber yard in Plashet Grove, East Ham and a building on Lavender Hill were all on fire
More than 100 people looted a Tesco store in Bethnal Green, the Met said, and two officers were injured
Cars were set on fire in Lewisham
A bus and shop were set alight in Peckham
Buses were diverted as the violence spread to Bromley High Street
There were reports of looting of phone shops in Woolwich High Street, in south-east London, and set a police car on fire
Shops and restaurants were damaged in Ealing, west London, and there was a fire in Haven Green park opposite Ealing Broadway Tube
Carling Cup matches at Charlton, West Ham, Crystal Palace and Bristol City, which were due to be played on Tuesday, have all been postponed at the request of the police
A friendly between England and Holland at Wembley on Wednesday was also called off
At Clapham Junction looters stole masks from a fancy dress store to hide their identity
Shops have been looted across the capital Catherine Holmes, a resident in Hackney, said: "The common feeling in Hackney Central is that our community has been hurt and damaged by causeless violence.

"We spoke to looters trying to get home - the only explanation they gave for their behaviour was that they had no money today.

"It is sad to think that these people are thinking of only the next moment, and the moment they have created is a nightmare."

'War zone'

Ealing resident Christian Potts, 29, was driving through the area when he witnessed the disturbances.

"It looks like a war zone - I have never seen anything like it in all my life," he said.

"There were about 25 to 30 masked youths on Haven Green and they just started tearing into a florist with bricks.

Click to play

Clapham resident Nick Shaw escaped unhurt from his home which was set ablaze
"It's a local family-run business so I can't see why they are doing this."

London's mayor Boris Johnson is cutting short his holiday to return to the city.

Home Secretary Theresa May also returned early from holiday, to meet Met chiefs to discuss their response to the violence.

"These have been the worst scenes of violence and disturbance on our streets for many, many years, and this sort of violence, this level of criminality, this thuggery, this looting, this theft, is completely unacceptable," Ms May told BBC Breakfast.

"We can deal with it. We can deal with it with robust policing, with good use of intelligence, but also with the help and support of local communities."

She added: "If there's anybody who knows somebody who was out on those streets last night and involved in this action then they should tell the police."

The trouble follows two nights of violence over the weekend which started after police shot a man dead in Tottenham.

A peaceful protest in Tottenham on Saturday over the death of Mark Duggan, 29, was followed by violence which spread into this week.

Decisive action?

[Jason Thompson]

The thuggery has even spread to Medway, it seems, with disturbances in Gillingham High Street and three cars set on fire in Chatham. This is little short of insanity.

[Perry Vale]

We have become so obsessed in this country with the rights of the individual we have lost sight of the fact that there are times when individuals forfeit those rights. These rioters have lost their right to complain if they get hurt during police action to stop their rampage, and they never had the right to behave as they have been in the first place.

I agree with this, and much of what Jason and Si Hunt have said.

Predictably uninspiring words from Cameron, another 10,00 police officers available to stand around and have rocks and bottles thrown at them.

[Jason Thompson]

Half the problem with what is going to happen next is that so many people can't seem to tell the difference between effective policing and a police state....

[Si Hunt]

Some charity shops have been looted.

It's a new low.

Si.

[Jason Thompson]

Apparently the only shop untouched by looters in Clapham was a Waterstones. Says it all, really.

[Larry]

The rioters and looters have crossed the line. Bollocks to psychology and subtlety, they need rounding up and sorting out. The police have a difficult job to do. They have to be seen to protect law and order but not to be excessive in their execution of the role. .

agreed the time for kit glove approach has passed and it's time the police used extream force to get the strreets under controll
the photo intodays Daily Mail, of a terified inicent victim leaping from a burning building into the arms of firemen is truely shocking and when people's lives are being put at risk these rioters should be shot.

[Jason Thompson]

You have to be joking, surely? Yes, they're causing damage and putting lives at risk, but shot? Really?