The Tottenham Riot

[SiHart]

When is shooting anyone a solution to anything? Sorry, but I find that really extreme.

[Rob McCow]

It was a shooting that started the whole thing going!

This might make your blood boil though:

A BBC journalist has spoken to two girls that took part in Monday night's riots in Croydon, who boasted that they were showing police and "the rich" that "we can do what we want".

The pair were drinking wine looted from a local shop at 09:30 BST the following morning.

Croydon was one of several areas plagued by unrest on Monday night, on a third night of riots in the capital. There ware also violent scenes in several other English cities.

Video link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

What they don't seem to realise is that they're not striking against 'The Rich', they're just smashing up their own community.

[Jason Thompson]

Fine, if they can do what they want why do they want to destroy their local community? Why do they want to destroy local people's livelihoods?

With any luck they will soon be disabused of the notion that they can behave like thugs just because they want to.

[Jason Thompson]

If ever there was a reason to develop phasers with wide-angle stun settings, this is it. There's an episode of the original Star Trek where Kirk and co beam down and find mobs approaching from all directions. They just pull out their phasers, set them on wide angle stun and drop the whole crowd with two shots each. Quickly subduing the crowd while doing no lasting damage. Just what we need.

[Awesome Wells]

You have to be joking, surely? Yes, they're causing damage and putting lives at risk, but shot? Really?

The clue to the roots of such an extreme and appalling suggestion possibly lies in the phrase "the photo in today's Daily Mail"...

[MinaHarker]

The clue to the roots of such an extreme and appalling suggestion possibly lies in the phrase "the photo in today's Daily Fail"...

Fixed that for you.

[Anthony Williams]

Apparently the only shop untouched by looters in Clapham was a Waterstones. Says it all, really.

The one I used to work in, strangely. It's been really eerie seeing the road on which I used to work in the news, everything having been looted except my old workplace!

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Mr Hamson, riotting and looting was reported as far North as Leeds and Birmingham well before you made your post, since you picked me up on it.

Si.

Wow as far north as Birmingham eh Well okay then, I had heard about Birmingham, but I didn't hear any reports of it anywhere else until today.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

It's worrying hearing so many people talk about keeping order through sending the army out, and many talking of "give them a rifle, and see how tough the rioters are then".

As Si Hart pointed out, soldiers with guns often cause more resentment, and Bloody Sunday shows that just having soldiers doesn't mean people calm down. And if lethal force is used against crowds, it's likely to end the riot, but push violent resentment underground.

It'd create a perfect breeding camp for extremists like Al'Qaeda. Do you really want to prematurely end a week of rioting only to face decades of terrorism?

[Rob McCow]

Yeah - I can understand people being angry, but to think that shooting the rioters would actually solve anything is completely stupid.

In fact, I'm just as furious with those calling for the rioters to be shot as the ones doing the rioting. "This country is going to the dogs - let's shoot the rioters" - because then things will fall apart far more quickly.

[SiHart]

Funny isn't it how if you have a massive police presence on the streets, the riots calm down. Looks like the rioting was all oppotunistic bastards then, not there for any ideological reasons.

[SiHart]

Yeah - I can understand people being angry, but to think that shooting the rioters would actually solve anything is completely stupid.

In fact, I'm just as furious with those calling for the rioters to be shot as the ones doing the rioting. "This country is going to the dogs - let's shoot the rioters" - because then things will fall apart far more quickly.

I quite agree. Solving a violent problem with more violence doesn't work.

[WhiteCrowNZ]

In fact, I'm just as furious with those calling for the rioters to be shot as the ones doing the rioting. "This country is going to the dogs - let's shoot the rioters" - because then things will fall apart far more quickly.

I'm glad to read that. Cos sometimes I feel I'm not hearing enough people speak out like that.

[Perry Vale]

It'd create a perfect breeding camp for extremists like Al'Qaeda. Do you really want to prematurely end a week of rioting only to face decades of terrorism?

Playing Devil's Advocate...

For starters, that's pure guesswork, and many would not want to see something not being done just on the basis of something hypothetical. If they really believe that's a course of action that is the right thing to do to fight this, then pandering to what these scum might do in the future is not something to be considered.

I expect many people calling for this want those involved to pay for what they've been doing, and all the tough words from Cameron are just hot air. You know that the percentage of troublemakers who will be made to pay for it in court will be small, most of the footage that can be used as evidence just won't stand up, most will simply claim "that's not me"...or their lawyers will find other technicalities to get them released on.

[Rob McCow]

Even if they're all convicted, how is it going to stop this sort of thing happening again? These people clearly don't care about society and I don't think that a few years in prison is really going to change their opinions.

[Perry Vale]

Even if they're all convicted, how is it going to stop this sort of thing happening again?

I take your point, but a lot of people want to see some form of deterrent to doing these things. If most of the perpetrators get off without punishment, what then is the deterrent to doing it in the future? Give them some free trainers?

[Si Hunt]

Exactly. We simply have to address the cause of this. I don't condone what these people did, but I now understand why they did it. Quite simply, why wouldn't they? They have nothing else to live for, nothing to do, no job, no money, no hope, a lot of anger and frustration because they perceive that the rest of us are rich and living it up. If they suddenly see they can get away with what they see as taking from the rich and giving to the poor, and having fun at the same time, well of course they're going to do that.

So we have to address the cause, as even if we shoot or lock up every one of those kids, there's just going to be another generation from the same background - in gangs and crime before they are teenagers, no loving parents, no hope, unemployable, and worst of all, with the misconception that their lives are hopeless and the rest of us are a rich ruling class who oppress them. They need to be educated to be shown that they can make something of themselves, and to understand that we're all in the same boat - the people they are looting are not rich, just working class and struggling to make ends meet. We need to make them part of our society, or this will just happen all over again.

Si.

[Perry Vale]

They have nothing else to live for, nothing to do, no job, no money, no hope...

This guy did.

[Rob McCow]

Rioter works at primary school

Well, they found one! I'd be impressed if all of them worked at primary schools, hospitals etc.

And note that they say 'Primary School Worker'. Not teacher

Bloody News International!

[Zbigniev Hamson]

In fact, I'm just as furious with those calling for the rioters to be shot as the ones doing the rioting.

You're genuinely just as furious with people who express an opinion you don't like, as you are with people who are setting fire to cars, businesses and homes, stealing anything they can get their hands on, mugging and beating people up?

[Rob McCow]

Oh yes.

Because it's that kind of simmering resentment, the armchair quarterbacking, the sitting on the side and saying 'They Should All Be Shot' that fuels these situations. If you really believe they should be shot, then you're saying that their lives are worthless. You're cheering on the Police as they murder people - albeit from the safe distance of your comfy home, or wherever you hold that opinion.

I'm not directing this at people who casually say 'Oh the police should use their guns' but at people who genuinely believe that a rioter has forfeited the right to life and that everything they've done and that everything they're ever going to do is worthless. It's exactly that sort of categorising people as sub-human (regardless of what they've actually done) that allows you to commit murder without conscience. It's the same attitude that the gunman in Norway had.

That's why it makes me cross.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

I quite agree. Solving a violent problem with more violence doesn't work.

Apart from on those numerous occasions since the dawn of time when it has done of course.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Oh yes.

Because it's that kind of simmering resentment, the armchair quarterbacking, the sitting on the side and saying 'They Should All Be Shot' that fuels these situations. If you really believe they should be shot, then you're saying that their lives are worthless. You're cheering on the Police as they murder people - albeit from the safe distance of your comfy home, or wherever you hold that opinion.

I'm not directing this at people who casually say 'Oh the police should use their guns' but at people who genuinely believe that a rioter has forfeited the right to life and that everything they've done and that everything they're ever going to do is worthless. It's exactly that sort of categorising people as sub-human (regardless of what they've actually done) that allows you to commit murder without conscience. It's the same attitude that the gunman in Norway had.

That's why it makes me cross.

It depends on if they're saying that the police should go out armed and shoot anyone they like on sight, or if they're saying that the police should be armed and allowed to use lethal force against a baying mob who are in the act of torching someone's flat to the ground. Even if you think that's a step way too far, you still can't honestly believe that someone in the act of wanton (possibly lethal) destruction being killed for the protection of others, can be as bad an act as someone killing someone else for no reason whatsoever (or because they want an ipod).

[SiHart]

Apart from on those numerous occasions since the dawn of time when it has done of course.

Well, yeah, apart from all those and there are times when its justified. I just don't think going out and firing on the looters is the best solution. And no, before you ask i really don't know what the best solution for this situation is. We've seen it in Northern Ireland over the best part of 40 years, and firing on the crowds of rioters there didn't put them off, didn't stop them in their tracks... it just made a delicate situation worse.

There are times when force is necessary and I'm not going to argue that taking on Hitler was wrong or any of those other stands that have been made through history, but this isn't the same thing as that.

I can see your argument but I don't think the taking of anyone's life by the Police, in this situation is justifiable. Sorry. I can't help the way I think. I'm not a realist, I'm a sentimental fool. So much so that when presented with the chance to fire a gun at a range in the USA earlier this year I broke out in a sweat and couldn't do it. I don't know what that says about me and you're welcome to draw your own conclusions, but shooting on people, even rioters, looters, these oppotunistic bastards doesn't sit right with me.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

I'm not saying I'm massively in favour of it either, just that I don't think any reaction to deal with wanton rioting, no matter how extreme, can be thought of as as bad as wanton rioting itself. Unless tactical nukes are deployed to sterilise the area of course.