'Classics' you just don't get

[Dino]

the master manipulator Seventh Doctor being gunned down randomly.

That is brilliant! And true. I'll be back when I think of one, but that sentence really sums it up.

[Dirk Gently]

Classics I don't get...MARCO POLO!!!!!! It's crap!!

Part 1. TARDIS lands, stops working, TARDIS crew go outside & get captured. Doctor wants his non-functioning TARDIS back so they can leave. Marco Polo says no.

Part 2. Susan gets lost, bad guy can't use poison, not enough water, bad guy sent to get water, doesn't come back.

Part 3. Water supply sorted, bad guy slips away (followed by companion who is captured) and plots death.

Part 4. Bad guy sows doubt between Polo & the TARDIS crew...er that's about it really.

Part 5. Bandit attack foiled, bad guy gets away with it, Ping-Cho tries to help the TARDIS crew escape. Bad guys hatches another plan...my god he's crap at this. Maybe he should just change careers!

Part 6. Companions are split once again, bad guy goes after TARDIS, Doctor makes friends with Kahn, bad guy threatens Ping-Cho.

Part 7. Bad guy returns to Palace, gets on Kahn's good side, TARDIS crew are imprissoned, break out, show bad guy up for what he is, bad guy losses & kills himself. TARDIS crew move on.

Wow, what a classic!

Q. Who the hell repaired the TARDIS!?

[Jason Thompson]

Q. Who the hell repaired the TARDIS!?

The Doctor did. He wanted Marco Polo to let them into the TARDIS so he could repair the broken circuit using the supplies he had in the ship, which is in fact precisely what he did on those various occasions he managed to sneak inside it.

And anticipating the question of why he made such a fuss in episode 1 if he could just repair the circuit anyway, it was a long job and as they were stuck near the top of a mountain they had the problem of food and warmth to worry about. Once they were taken in by Marco Polo's caravan they had the shelter and food they needed, so then he could have repaired the circuit at his leisure if not for being barred from entering.

[Si Hunt]

Yes, didn't he spend several episodes in there repairing it while Hartnell was off fishing? Tim's not been paying attention!

Also in Polo's defence, the story is about their journey and the things that happen to them on it, so it's to miss the point somewhat to say that every episode simply has them getting a little closer. The beauty is in the detail, such as the way the travellers gradually gain Polo's trust, the trip accross the Gobi Desert as they all weaken as they attempt to cross the desert with dwindling water supplies, the tale of Ping Cho and her fate to marry an old man, Susans burgeoning friendship with her, Ian's science lessons to the people of this less aware age, the Doctors repartee with the similarly age-afflicted Kublai Khan, his game of backgammon for the TARDIS...

The physical journey is just the setting for a far more interesting journey, that of the different characters as they learn to trust each other and face various trials and perils, both personal and epic as they reach their destination.

Si.

[Rob McCow]

The physical journey is just the setting for a far more interesting journey, that of the different characters as they learn to trust each other and face various trials and perils, both personal and epic as they reach their destination.

Sorry, are you still talking about Midnight?

[Si Hunt]

No, the characters on that don't go on a journey as they may or may not being "controlled" by something unexplained all the way through. Unless you include a journey of shouting.

Si.

[duncan]

It was? I must get with the programme.

Oh and Duncan, I agree about The Deadly Assassin. What a dreary load of nonsense it is. Aside from episode 4 which is very funny.

I didn't mention The Deadly Assassin Si. Besides, it's actually one of my all time favourites.

I must say that I do disagree with anything from the new series being labelled as "Classics". The point of the Thread was to list those that are already classed as classics that we don't get. Or is that just the way I read it?

[Dirk Gently]

Tim's not been paying attention!

Si.

Sorry, hard to pay attention to something that only exists on audio & it's still boring. And still no argument about why it's such a "Classic". Interesting it may be, in part, but a classic?

[SiHart]

I didn't mention The Deadly Assassin Si. Besides, it's actually one of my all time favourites.

I must say that I do disagree with anything from the new series being labelled as "Classics". The point of the Thread was to list those that are already classed as classics that we don't get. Or is that just the way I read it?

Oops! I meant I agree with Perry Vale of course

[Awesome Wells]

That's being picky though. The general idea of the thread was stories that other people think are great, and you don't get why. Besides, I'd say putting a story in your Top 10 of ALL TIME Doctor Who stories is pretty much tantamount to saying "it's a classic" isn't it?

And you can judge something to have "enduring significance" after six years, surely?

Si.

I could point out that none of these stories are six years old, but that *would* be picky. However, I disagree that somebody placing - say - Midnight in their all-time top ten makes it a classic. I could put Colin Baker's coat in my "all-time top ten classic Doctor Who costume designs" list (if I had one and was mental or blind) but that doesn't make it true. If lots of people, over a significant amount of time, said the same thing, then it might be acknowledged a classic. One person saying it is just one person's opinion; fifty people saying it is just fifty people's opinion. A hundred people, over ten years, I might be more convinced.

Still, who cares? It's only Doctor Who.

[Perry Vale]

Well, 'Blink' was voted second in the DWM poll, so surely some NuWho must be considered "classic"?

[Rob McCow]

Quick! All over to the new thread I'm about to start: 'Stories that other people seem to really like from any era of Doctor Who that you're not so keen on'!

[Zbigniev Hamson]

That's being picky though. The general idea of the thread was stories that other people think are great, and you don't get why. Besides, I'd say putting a story in your Top 10 of ALL TIME Doctor Who stories is pretty much tantamount to saying "it's a classic" isn't it?

And you can judge something to have "enduring significance" after six years, surely?

Si.

I can't remember anyone ever having any particularly strong feelings about The Shakespeare Code. It's certainly never mentioned as one of the great episodes of the new series like Blink or even Midnight.

[SiHart]

Certainly on Planet Skaro there was no consensus at the time: http://www.planetskaro.org.uk/forums...read.php?t=979

[J.R. Southall]

Um, maybe we can stop talking about what constitutes a "classic" now and get on with the job of debunking them...

Genesis of the Daleks: I'm not saying I don't like it (and David Maloney's direction is enough to lift any Doctor Who story), but outside of the addition of Davros, it's really just a slightly tired retread of the tropes of the past two Terry Nation stories. If Planet's a remake of The Daleks (which I don't really subscribe to), then this is a remake of Planet. Note: the companion falling in with the only friendly native in an unfriendly civilisation that's been brought to its knees by the Daleks; the dangerous escape through a shaft/cave of some kind; the ending in which the Daleks are entombed in their underground lair; the natives being rounded up and forced into working as slave labour; and so on and so forth...and all done with less conviction than two years previously. Take Davros out of the equation and it's a lot less than its reputation suggests.

Also, The Sea Devils: again, I do like it rather a lot, but it's another instance of a decent Doctor Who writer relying on one particular conceit at the expense of something else. In this case, Malcolm Hulke writes a lovely Bondesque Master caper, but forgets to make the eponymous Sea Devils a fully-realised society. After the Silurians and Colony in Space, and with Frontier in Space and Invasion of the Dinosaurs still to come, there's a real lack of conviction to a lot of the characters' motivations in this story.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Surely it was just another one of those "Meh" episodes that kind of wafts on by without causing much of a fuss either way. I barely remember a single thing about it, and it certainly doesn't seem to crop up in any thread discussions (apart from this one).

(he said, referring to the Shakespeare Code)

[Andrew Curnow]

Obviously my opinion on Caves has been aired far too often for me to moan about that one again, but today I'd like to debunk the 'classic' that is...

The Seeds of Doom.

I've seen it twice now, and I still don't 'get it'. First up, we have a very unpleasant Doctor for much of the story's run - he's rude to the guy in charge of the Ecology Bureau just because he wants to be, and it's unpleasant. He's aloof and apparently disinterested early on, rather bizarrely telling the guys in the Antarctic that they'll need to do the amputation rather than him (some odd line like "You have to help yourselves" covers that - because of course the Doctor NEVER gets involved in things does he).

Then there's the story - like many an Avengers (but as far as I can recall, NO other Doctor Who) the Ecology Bureau is located within spitting distance of the villain's lair. In a story where the lead characters has a space & time-travelling box, Harrison Chase could have lived in the middle of the Amazon rainforest rather than just down the road from the Bureau.

The painting in the boot - I get that it's a plot device to get us from A to B, but it's just done in such an obviously, insultingly unsubtle way. It also brings in that ghastly woman, who again serves no actual function in the story.

Then there's the resolution - the Doctor who bemoaned the Brig's treatment of the Silurians, and just a year before agonised over destroying the Daleks... saves the day by BLOWING THE MONSTER UP. Not even as a last resort, it's just the only plan they have. And what makes it worse is that episode 5 gives the Krynoid a voice, clearly demonstrating it is a reasoning creature rather than 'just' an unthinking plant. So the Doctor BLOWS THE MONSTER UP.

Not to mention the business about jumping through the skylight, so that he can grab that gun and waggle it about... If it wasn't for Zygons, I'd suggest RBS had never even seen Doctor Who before.

I'm not disputing that Douglas Camfield makes it look great (the opening merge from stock Antartic footage to a studio icefield, is absolutely superb and totally overcomes the film/video jar) but the story itself is just AWFUL, and is made worse by featuring a Doctor who I find incredibly hard to like at all.

[J.R. Southall]

Agreed on The Seeds of Doom. And The Caves of Androzani. Great stories both. Classic Doctor Who? Not either.

[brandynigma]

The point of the Thread was to list those that are already classed as classics that we don't get. Or is that just the way I read it?

Nah, I'm cool with New Series being discussed.

I guess my definition of a 'classic' is something loads of fans really love. The Androids of Tara is my favourite story, but I acknowledge it's not a classic.

Although Cyril Shaps and his amazing hat try their hardest.

[J.R. Southall]

Oh I don't know; I have a lot of love for The Androids of Tara too!

[Rob McCow]

If Planet's a remake of The Daleks (which I don't really subscribe to), then this is a remake of Planet.

I have my own pet theory about Genesis of The Daleks, which is that Terry Nation gave them exactly the same script yet again. All of the good bits were written by Robert Holmes, hence why Davros is a crippled but charismatic villain who manipulates opposing sides to his own advantage. (See: Sharaz Jek, Magnus Greel etc.)

[J.R. Southall]

A review I wrote of that very story some years ago:

Davros! If you had created a script in your typewriter, something chilling and paradigm-shifting, that entertained as well as inspired, a story that would rewrite all of Dalek continuity ... would you use it? It's an interesting conjecture. Would you do it? The only genesis story ... the early Dalek tales ...written out of Who continuity ... a fascinating idea. But would you do it? Yes. Yes, to hold in my hand, a script that contained such power. To know that burgeoning fandom's idea of the sacrosanct was my choice. To know that the simple act of filming it, and putting it on the telly-box, would change everything. Yes. I would do it. That story would set me up above the gods. And through Robert Holmes' script re-writes I shall have that power!

[J.R. Southall]

Incidentally, Barry Letts tells the story of how when Nation handed him his third set of Dalek scripts, Letts complained it was just the same story as the last two (Planet and Death) all over again, and thus sent Nation away to rewrite it himself. So we'll never know just how much of Davros is Nation and how much is Holmes. But it's an interesting thought!

[Simon R]

I was going to nominate 'Genesis'. It is good but visually it's very dull looking with endless grey corridors and the usual David Maloney mish mash of film and video in the same settings/scenes.

[Stuart Wallis]

The Ribos Operation. A very slow story in which the characters spend ages standing around talking about the various background material that describes Riban society and the Graf's background; but apart from the setting-up of the season at the beginning, the description of the Graf's reduced circumstances and the crown jewels, little if any of it carries the flimsy plot along. The conversations between Unstoffe and Binro are well-written, but are the worst offenders in that respect - the serial comes to a dead stop, and Binro doesn't really contribute towards, well, anything really.