Rate and Discuss 6.8: Let's Kill Hitler (!)

[Awesome Wells]

But, at the end of the day, I am a Doctor Who fan, and I will keep watching. There's always hope that it'll get better.

I was with you - disagreeing utterly, but entirely accepting your rationale and belief in the argument you'd put forward - until you said this. What's the point in doing something you don't enjoy? If you dislike Moffat's Who, stop watching it - one, because you won't have to do something you don't like, and two, because as long as you're part of the watching demographic, boosting the ratings, you can't expect things to change. Sitting around watching a television show you don't like when there's a million more exciting things to do, is a terrible waste of time. Doctor Who isn't a football team for you to turn up and support every week, even if it's in the third division and playing against Macclesfield Town. Vote with your eyes, hands and arse: get off the sofa, turn the telly off and STOP WATCHING. It's as simple as that.

[Zbigniev Hamson]

proudly walking down the street with her in her buggy...

Maybe I lack a certain amount of paternal instinct, but eh? Where does pride come into that action? (and yes this is very OT)

[Anthony Williams]

There's always the hope that it'll get better, or that we'll get some diamonds in the rough. For example, I absolutely loved The Doctor's Wife - an absolute gem in what has otherwise been, to me, the worst series since Who came back. Who knows, the next four episodes might be brilliant. Moffat may even have me eating my words in the final episode of the series - he may totally defy my expectations, and pull a story of sheer brilliance out of his hat, that explains everything. Every little plot hole.

This is a series that I've been a fan of for as long as I can remember. It's been one of my continuous passions in life, and I'm not giving up on it because I don't agree with the direction that it's been going in recently.

Oh, and my viewings don't contribute to the ratings, either

[FlyingBeastie]

Meh.

Quite literally. It was like taking a shower with lukewarm water: I wasn't burned nor frosted. It was quite literally tolerable in every sense of the word and perhaps the second best episode of this season (well behind "Wife")

But to be quite honest, that doesn't mean diddly squat. I should be excited and looking forward to watching Who, not necessarily either looking to kill time while a hurricane rolls over or looking forward to how Moffat's going to butcher things up further.

The "big reveals" weren't big nor reveals for me, and I haven't read any spoilers. Moment that car showed up I thought, "River". And the fact that character's name was Mels was quite obvious too. Not only that, but the whole "programming to kill the Doctor" thing was something I've suspected since River mentioned she was imprisoned for killing someone.

And once again, everything's done for effect or as a gimmick- title was a gimmick, they've turned the regeneration into a gimmick (why is it that for River, who's like 1/8th or 1/12th timelord able to regenerate with no problems yet the Doctor is always on the verge of pulling a hernia when he's full/allegedly half?)-

When Eccleston first exploded with his regeneration it was awesome (in terms of being arc of the covenant face melting awesome), when The Master was revealed it was as awesome yet slightly less, maybe, and when Tennant regenerated it was, again, awesome cos of the emotional impact and then they punched up a bit by blowing up the TARDIS.

NOW we get a regeneration/regeneration effect every 4 or 5 episodes.... not only that, but it's done for the same reasons they had lightsabers everywhere in the prequels- cos it's "cool" or "funny" or "shocking" and the masses want to see it and the fanboys will love it!


The show featured Hitler for 10 seconds. Again, something shoehorned in just for the sake of it.


My biggest problem are the characters of Amy & Rory. I can suspend belief River used her timebracelet to bring them back home after Demon's Run probably. But what was the reason for The Doctor to leave them behind? Especially when he made no advances in finding Melody?

Actually, Amy & Rory are probably the worst parents I've seen realized on screen. I'm not talking about child abuse worst, I'm talking about characterization worst. Because they still have no character. If they were well realized characters, they would be much more pissed and much more worried about the situation regarding their daughter, and yet, all I see is that they literally have no reaction to it. None.

On the other hand, Children of Earth, Jack's daughter and his grandson- need I say more? That was a real mother. Or better yet, Donna with her "children" in the Library two parter. Her reaction to the kids disappearing before her eyes was magnificent and moving.

I dunno whether Karen Gillan and Arthur Darvill just don't have that ability to emote that sort of parentalness, or maybe Moffat just didn't write that in, but in either case it's detrimental cos this is essentially the core to this era. And the audience can only be invested if they care about the characters and can be empathetic to them- but how can the audience feel that if the characters aren't even empathetic to each other?

I totally didn't buy that "I love you scene" where Amy and Rory were supposedly done for. Again, there was just nothing there.

Once again, every time I see Matt Smith I see missed opportunity. He hits the mark across the board in terms of acting but is undermined by the mediocre writing. Cos I'm not saying what's going on is necessarily an all out fail, it just needed to go through more drafts cos it's all quite shallow and underdeveloped.

Once again, the supplementary characters were just there to further the plot and not necessarily do much else.

What's up with Smith's costume? I know they don't want it to look like he's wearing the same thing, but frankly they achieved that with Eccleston and Tennant without having to dramatically change up their outfits. Now Smith just looks like Benedict Bickersnatch or whatever his face is but in an olive coat.


Before people start saying, "ONH DEN Y IZ IT A 4/10?" Like I said, it was quite a tepid episode and, frankly, I've given up really caring. Sure there were high points like the whole "Guilt!" sequence, but, again, why so many callbacks to things? Why must everything be so self-referential? Does Moffat need to rely on things the audience remembers and likes in order to make sure we're still enjoying ourselves? I can understand one or two callbacks a series, but we just saw the old TARDIS console not three or four episodes ago. And lest we forget last season with seeing Hartnell's face like three times.


Quite barely mildly entertaining, and not really obscene or anger-making. Hence: 4/10

[Anthony Williams]

Wow... FlyingBeastie actually liked it more than I did!

[FlyingBeastie]

But they also learnt that the best friend they had as children / teenagers was infact their daughter, and that in a way they did bring her up / spend all that time with her. And probably in far more fun a way than they ever could as proper parents.

That's another problem I'm having with this season. See, I figured when Amy's time with The Doctor would end would've been her wedding day cos that's, "the time to put away childish things" and it would've wrapped up the whole fairytale angle up beautifully.

But everything's backwards, and no one's being given any character so there's no gravitas. What's the problem with families (never met Amy's) and being parents?

Maybe I'm taking your quote a little too personally, Alex, but it's a big issue I take up with cos it seems nowadays (not just on Who) but on television in general that having a kid and raising a family "sucks". Why can't it ever be shown in a positive light? Even looking back at sitcoms where the family was dysfunctional, in the end there was always that subtext that no matter what they loved and truly cared for each other for all their wackiness and such.

But now the subtext is always, "family and having kids is an unfun chore". Perhaps Moffat is projecting his own sense of having a family and raising kids. And, frankly, no matter what it is, your outlook on something is what you make of it.

Essentially:

[FlyingBeastie]

Wow... FlyingBeastie actually liked it more than I did!

In a manner of speaking, yeah I definitely tolerated it and think it has a higher rewatch value than 92% of Moffat's run thus far (don't quote me on the maths)

[FlyingBeastie]

Vote with your eyes, hands and arse: get off the sofa, turn the telly off and STOP WATCHING. It's as simple as that.

You forget Ant and I live in a free country- (reiterating what Ant said, we don't contribute to ratings) AND it's up to us to stop watching, especially since Moffat isn't going to be showrunner forever...

There's also nothing wrong in continuing watching something to be critical of it (which is essentially what it's turned into for me)

[Zbigniev Hamson]

Yay, I was hoping you'd show up

What you said about callbacks reminded me of something though, although it's not quite what you meant, but is there reeeeeally any need to have flashback sequences to things that happened about a minute earlier in the same scene? If you can't remember that River just kissed the Doctor and need to be shown it again 60 seconds later then you don't deserve to live.

[FlyingBeastie]

Yay, I was hoping you'd show up

What you said about callbacks reminded me of something though, although it's not quite what you meant, but is there reeeeeally any need to have flashback sequences to things that happened about a minute earlier in the same scene? If you can't remember that River just kissed the Doctor and need to be shown it again 60 seconds later then you don't deserve to live.

Haha, nice to know I'm expected.

I also agree about the flashbacks; it's cementing my assumption Moffat is aiming this show more and more for children.

Also, anyone else bothered by the fact the Doctor gave Melody the journal? I was always under the impression she made it herself. I mean, did he order that from the TARDIS along with the sonic cane? Did he buy it from the little shop inside the hospital he's always so fond of? Why did that need to be there?

They could've omitted that shot and simply kept it in the last shot. Would've totally preferred that.


I just rewatched it and, yeah, holding the same opinion that it's tolerable. But, again- the whole fact that Amy and Rory are so blah towards River is quite frustrating. The moment they see River regenerating and she asks, "Is he worth it?"

Where was that moment where Amy and Rory go, "What are you doing?" with concern.

Cos if she was about to do something that would've ended up harming herself or killing herself, I highly doubt any parent would choose the Doctor over their own flesh and blood. Or at least seriously think about it and not go, "Yup! OH yeah, go right ahead!"

It's just too far a leap, at least, normally it'd be too far a leap...

[Junkyard]

A lot of exposition and not much entertainment. A few more pieces of the River Song jigsaw filled in. I get the impression this series will finish this arc and we can go on to something new.

[egdcltd]

I'm finding it harder and harder to judge an episode on its own merits, as I feel they're getting less and less stand alone. Instead, I'm starting to treat this season as part two in a massive two parter, with season one being the first. Hopefully with a decent conclusion.

[tony ingram]

Pretty good, i thought. A nice resolution to the missing melody situation, and i liked the twist that Amy and Rory had known her all the time...

[Si Hunt]

To be fair, the flashbacks wernt to remind us, they were to show us things we didnt see before, like the Doctor switching the gun for the banana. So to say they are underestimating the audiences ability to remember what just happened misses the point entirely.

Si.

[Alex]

I've read that four times and still can't believe you wrote it. How on earth could they have more fun with their daughter as a friend than as parents? Her first steps, her first words, her first tooth, magical Christmases, proudly walking down the street with her in her buggy... yes not as much fun as having a mouthy, waste of space delinquent as a friend without realising she's your daughter.

But what about all the sleepless nights, the nappy changes, the times they cry all night due to teething, fights with siblings and friends, messing up at school, how many instantly become embarrassed by their parents the moment they hit 12 years old, and all the negative side of parenting? As a friend, especially in the teenage years, you're going to be much closer and spend much more time with them in general. I do partially understand your point, admittedly, but as someone who doesn't want kids at all, and finds them annoying a lot of the time (Tabs and William excepted!) I feel it's a valid point of view. Just different to yours.

Maybe I'm taking your quote a little too personally, Alex, but it's a big issue I take up with cos it seems nowadays (not just on Who) but on television in general that having a kid and raising a family "sucks". Why can't it ever be shown in a positive light? Even looking back at sitcoms where the family was dysfunctional, in the end there was always that subtext that no matter what they loved and truly cared for each other for all their wackiness and such.

But now the subtext is always, "family and having kids is an unfun chore". Perhaps Moffat is projecting his own sense of having a family and raising kids. And, frankly, no matter what it is, your outlook on something is what you make of it.

I see where you're coming from too Beastie, and I know I'm in the minority here when it comes to having such views about children / family*, but we've had seasons of Rose and her Mum, Martha and her family, Donna and co, so I don't feel it's a bad thing that with this specific companion we're not bogged down with family stuff (which was something I never liked in the RTD era to be honest). And you should watch King of the Hill, not just because it's one of the funniest shows ever made, but also because it's a beautifully heartwarming portrayal of positive family life.

* I do like my family more than kids though, and do see the importance of having such things in general

[SiHart]

I enjoyed it a great deal. It answered some questions. The robot ship was very cool. Hitler was we, portrayed and well Rory is just better and better every episode.

[brandynigma]

8 out of 10.

A great return to form for Doctor Who, after the angsty depths of A Good Fan Goes to Pot. Hitler was ancillary to the plot and an obvious publicity ploy, but so what? for those few minutes, Albert Welling put in a solid performance.

As for the story- it almost solves the River/Melody thing; it addresses temporal grace; it covers the guilt the Doctor feels for his past with becoming maudlin; and Caitlin Blackwood turned up again.

It loses a point because the past companions were obvious publicity stills, and another point because we didn't have a scene showing the cupboard door, with a plaintive knocking behind, and shouting in German.

[Perry Vale]

Oh what a joyless thread this is.

Not neccessarily connected, in response to some points...

so we are shown that while regenerating, bullets are not fatal and that they are fatal...

Were we? Who took a fatal bullet in this episode? In my view, Moffat simply used elements of what has gone before. David Tennant grew a new hand hours after regenerating in TCI, there was nothing that different about River repelling the bullets here.

If Melody had been brainwashed and trained all her life to kill the Doctor, then why not just shoot him in the cornfield right at the beginning when he wasn't suspecting anything, and avoid all that messing around in Berlin in the first place.

As she said in dialogue, she wanted to meet him and see what he was like first. She isn't just some brainwashed zombie, she's an individual too with a very strong character and personality. She's the daughter of Amy & Rory, and the Tardis too.

Why specifically state that you hunt down all the worst people and give them hell right at the end of their timeline, and then proceed to give River hell within the first half hour of her lifetime

Because they then specifically state that she's a very high on the list "catch", and getting her would be a coup, put them all in line for "promotion" if you like.

Anyway, I watched it a second time last night, and yet again now wish I had held off my vote, and would now give it a 10. It was brilliant, and just so much fun right from the off. A lovely surprise to see young Caitlin back, and such a relief that they didn't give us a boring 'Shakespeare's Code' type romp. To be honest, I never for one moment thought they would from the moment the episode title was revealed at the end of AGMGTW.

I should probably steer well clear of these pages, as so much of it comes across as petty moaning. People complain about the story arcs, and not getting any answers, yet the last two have delivered in spades, imo, answering many crucial questions.

Some interesting little pieces thrown in too that I enjoyed, such as the Tardis voice interface, which nicely linked back to 'Amy's Choice', once again depicting the Doctor's evident self-loathing.

More please, I dread the day Moffat is not in charge, in case we go back to the low standard of the previous four years.

[Jason Thompson]

To be fair, the flashbacks wernt to remind us, they were to show us things we didnt see before, like the Doctor switching the gun for the banana. So to say they are underestimating the audiences ability to remember what just happened misses the point entirely.

Si.

That is true for all but one: the flashback to River kissing the Doctor. We did see that, and less than a minute earlier. I think that was the point of contention there, not all the gun-switching shenanigans, which were quite fun.

[Darren]

I love the way Doctor Who polarizes opinion.

It's great you liked it Steve, but for me, one of the worst episodes since SM took over.

[egdcltd]

I love the way Doctor Who polarizes opinion.

Me too. I dread the day that everyone considers all the episodes as being 5/10. I'd rather have strong opinions - positive or negative - than perpetual blandness.

I may have come across as being a bit negative towards the episode, but really, I don't think it's fair to properly judge many of the recent episodes until we reach the climax.

[Rob McCow]

Wooooooooooo!

Frankly, that episode was amazing. The direction was absolutely GORGEOUS from start to finish, loads of great little flourishes and ideas. Doctor Who is looking more like a movie - and a bloody good one at that - than ever!

And I thought the story was damnably entertaining too! This may be because I like to be surprised. I thought that getting all the background and questions about River Song tied up was immensely satisfying.

So hurrah really, great fun all round!

[davethesailor]

Hurrah indeed! I loved that episode! Fast paced, gripping and lots of stuff explained in a satisfactory way. I agree with Si Hart, Rory is getting better and better. Matt Smith continues to shine. Next week looks quite disturbing! Bring it on!

[Anthony Williams]

Oh what a joyless thread this is.

I should probably steer well clear of these pages, as so much of it comes across as petty moaning. People complain about the story arcs, and not getting any answers, yet the last two have delivered in spades, imo, answering many crucial questions.

I'm sorry, Steve (Perry) - but those of us who didn't like the episode have just as much right to come on here and say how we feel about it. There's nothing forcing us to superficially praise the latest episodes to high heavens, if we didn't like them.

You complained about the "low standard" of the previous four years - surely that's the same thing as myself, Beastie, Zbigniev et al. complaining about the current run? There are many people, myself included, who enjoyed a lot of the episodes put out in RTD's tenure. Sure, his era had its low-points, too. What era didn't (well, aside from the 7th Doctor's, IMO - but there are plenty of people who'll disagree with me on that!)

It's the difference of opinion that makes it interesting

One thing I agree with is something that Steve (McCow) said - visually, these latest episodes are stunning. I may not like the plots or the story-arc, but these are definitely looking like films. Absolutely gorgeous!

Incidentally, I'm really looking forward to next week's. Hopefully a lot of the arc-baggage that bogged down the first half of the series will be left-alone, and we can enjoy a good chiller from Gatiss!

[egdcltd]

Here's a thought I just had: Who is in the spacesuit that shoots the Doctor? All the signs up until now seemed to show that it would be the young Melody Pond. That now seems kind of unlikely, as she would have done that in before she poisoned him. Surely she would have remembered she'd already killed him.