Rate and Discuss 6.8: Let's Kill Hitler (!)

[Jason Thompson]

It would be nice to have Amy staying on but give her a chance to be a 'normal' companion, i.e. one who has adventures with the Doctor, not one whose life defines the Doctor's adventures.

[Perry Vale]

Here's a thought I just had: Who is in the spacesuit that shoots the Doctor? All the signs up until now seemed to show that it would be the young Melody Pond. That now seems kind of unlikely, as she would have done that in before she poisoned him. Surely she would have remembered she'd already killed him.

As I speculated earlier in the season on related threads, perhaps 1100 year old Doctor/Ganger sets up a plan with River Song to turn up at the lake in the suit and kill him, thus appearing 'dead' to all the Universe (as shown by the records of the Tesaselecta), and River is imprisoned in Storm Cage for killing a 'good man'.

[J.R. Southall]

As I speculated earlier in the season on related threads, perhaps 1100 year old Doctor/Ganger sets up a plan with River Song to turn up at the lake in the suit and kill him, thus appearing 'dead' to all the Universe (as shown by the records of the Tesaselecta), and River is imprisoned in Storm Cage for killing a 'good man'.

And this seems even more plausible now.

Incidentally, writing a drama about a small number of people and their relationships with one another is - basically - just what Steven Moffat does. (vis Coupling, Chalk, Joking Apart, Press Gang, even Jekyll.)

Whether we like it or not, I'm afraid that's just what Doctor Who is going to be while Moffat's in charge.

I didn't like it myself last year, but now I've accepted it and have become used to it I find I'm really rather enjoying it!

But don't worry, Moffat won't last forever and then Doctor Who will be something else again.

(My money's on Gatiss...)

[Zbigniev Hamson]

(I hope not)

[Dino]

Another vote for "NOT GATISS!" as producer. I'm sure this Saturday's episode will make a good case, but that's not enough! I'd rather see someone who never wrote a NA or has previous knowledge of the show like RTD and Moffatt has.
"Are you nuts?!?" No, but it'd give a fresh outlook on the show. Plus just because someone didn't have involvement with the show, it doesn't make them stupid.
Maybe this should go in a thread of it's own?..

[Darren]

(My money's on Gatiss...)

Ohhh that's just sick.

[Si Hunt]

Imagine if he cast himself as the Doctor.

Si.

[Darren]

*shudders*

[FlyingBeastie]

You said that knowing she had the ability to regenerate added more weight to her sacrifice. Why? She, the River we know, still 'dies', whether she can regenerate or not.

Whenever a character has something akin to immortality it just adds weight imho.

Apart from giving her the ability to heal the Doctor?

Which, again, I said was something that felt super rushed and just thrown in there so we could get to point B where River becomes part of the goodies.

I have neither told you not to watch nor mocked your reasons for it, though frankly it does baffle me why anyone would watch something they were not enjoying, apparently just to tear it to shreds. Asking why is a perfectly legitimate question, however.

I wasn't directing that bit at you. And there is such a thing called shaddenfreude (which isn't exactly what I'm talking about, but it is sort of akin to why people love trainwrecks so much)

[FlyingBeastie]

(I hope not)

Ditto from me. At that point I'd probably definitely stop watching.

I agree with the person who suggested having on someone who hasn't been involved with Who, maybe from a different genre.

See, maybe what I'm not liking from Moffat is how flippant everything is in that it's all very much like a sitcom and there are no real dramatic or serious stakes or consequences involved.

Whereas RTD had more drama, more grit (I never watched Queer as Folk, but I'm sure that's why his era was the way it was)

Not to seem biased or anything, but it'd be great to see perhaps the likes of a(n) Ira Stephen Behr, Ron Moore, Bryan Fuller, or Tim Minear. I know they're all American, for starters, but, hey, it'd definitely be a new outlook/vision and all have been involved with great series in and out of the sci-fi/fantasy genre.

Actually, I'm quite surprised there haven't been any American writers asked on to do episodes (or have there been?) I mean, there's a big viewership pool here in the States and BBC America and BBC are quite closely tied nowadays...

[J.R. Southall]

Incidentally, I feel I ought to point out that when I wrote "(My money's on Gatiss...)" this was not due to any particular desire on my part (although having come to this conclusion, and subsequently weighed up the pros and cons, I think I've warmed to the idea slightly), but simply because I looked at the options and Gatiss seems by far the more likely choice.

The other two in contention would appear to be Chris Chibnall and Toby Whithouse, both having plenty of experience of running their own shows. But Whithouse's is on a minority channel whereas Gatiss has created shows for the bigger channels, and Chibnall just doesn't bear thinking about... (and is hopefully too busy elsewhere anyway).

[SiHart]

Matthew Graham may be a contender too.

[J.R. Southall]

I guess so. But Graham seems primarily to be employed by Kudos; I wonder if he's tied in somehow, or if that's just because he enjoys the people he works with there? I don't think I like the idea of Matthew Graham taking over either!

[SiHart]

No, none of the candidates so far are entirely ideal. Maybe they need someone from outside, someone who isn't a fan to do it. That'd be a good shake up.

[Si Hunt]

I think it's important to remember that a body does officially "die" before it regenerates; that much is made clear in "The TV Movie" most of all.

So regeneration renews a body and brings it back to life. It seems now a limited amount of regeneration "energy" can heal a body without completely re-arranging the cells and altering the appearance. "Let's Kill Hitler" seemed to show for the first time that someone elses regeneration energy can bring another body back to life, without changing the appearance.

So really, maybe this was the clue. All it takes is for someone to wade in to the Doctors charred body from "The Impossible Astronaut", dole out a bit of regeneration energy, and rejuvinate it.

Si.

[SiHart]

It may not have been the first time, as I think all the silliness in Journey's End with the Meta-Doctor established that regeneration energy does strange odd things to bodies.

[Si Hunt]

But this is the first time we've actually seen someone brought back from the dead by a regeneration without having to change their form.

Maybe there's more to this than we can fry - perhaps someone has engineered more intelligent regeneration 'nanos' that can heal a dead body without it having to change form? Maybe they did it by combining a semi-Time Lord (River) with DNA from an immortal being (Jack) and maybe the nano virus from "An Empty Child" survived and spread it over the rest of mankind? Maybe that's how "Miracle Day" came about? And... and... and...

KERBOOOM! (Si's head explodes)

Si.

[brandynigma]

I wasn't directing that bit at you. And there is such a thing called shaddenfreude (which isn't exactly what I'm talking about, but it is sort of akin to why people love trainwrecks so much)

Schadenfreude is happiness at the misfortune or others. The urge to stop and watch train wrecks is a form of voyuerism.

Unless you're saying people who stop to watch train wrecks get off on it, in which case, remind me never to sit next to you on a train.

[SiHart]

But this is the first time we've actually seen someone brought back from the dead by a regeneration without having to change their form.

Well David Tennant didn't change form, he just redirected the energy.

[J.R. Southall]

All it takes is for someone to wade in to the Doctors charred body from "The Impossible Astronaut", dole out a bit of regeneration energy, and rejuvinate it.

Si.

What an interesting idea ...

Suppose the Ganger Doctor has survived and turns up to dole out his remaining regenerations, and the 'original' Doctor then wakes up, having absorbed the Ganger Doctor's future lives as well as River Song's...

That's anything from twelve to twenty-odd more lives the Doctor has gained before we need to start worrying about "final regeneration angst" rearing its ugly head all over again.

Of course, the truth is more likely to be that the 900-year-old Doctor can give his remaining two regenerations (augmented by River's, of course) to the 1,100-year-old Doctor, and Bob's yer uncle. 1,100-year-old Doctor lives on, and still has another twelve lives to go before he needs to worry again... (And 900-year-old Doctor can happily go off and waste a couple of hundred years safe in the knowledge that his future is secure.)

[Nicky74]

I gave it 10/10. Good opener. At least they killed The Doctor this time and not Rory, although I'm sure that is still likely to happen before the end of the season.

[Si Hunt]

The only problem with that theory is, I think if the number of the Doctors remaining regenerations would have been mentioned by now if this was to play any kind of part. Indeed, a flippant line suggesting there is virtually no limit was said by the Doctor in "Sarah Jane", and you'd think if this contradicted an important impending plot point, Moffat would have asked for it to be removed.

I've always said that it would be the work of one line of dialogue to "undo" the apparent "end of the show" as forcast by "The Deadly Assassin" after two more actors, but in hindsight it's actually odd the "limit" hasn't been ressurected by now, rather than brushed under the carpet or contradicted. It would certainly add some dramatic tension to a show whose lead character has until now been almost immortal.

Si.

[Rob McCow]

I gave it 10/10.

Yay!

[Si Hunt]

I gave it 1/10 to balance out the blatant over-enthusiasm for a humdrum episode.

Si.

[Awesome Wells]

I gave it 1/10 to balance out the blatant over-enthusiasm for a humdrum episode.

Si.

I gave it 10/10 to balance out the mystifying enthusiasm for the previous 48 years of tedious Doctor Who stories.